Wayfinding and weaving with Mila Aliana

Wayfinding and weaving with Mila Aliana
Mila Aliana - wayfinding and weaving

Today, we are learning from Mila Aliana.

Mila works in the messy, uncharted spaces where complexity lives, across industries, sectors, coalitions, and multi-stakeholder systems, where things are no longer working and no one quite knows how to navigate what’s next. Mila tends to work at the level of patterns and relationships, helping people see what’s really shaping behaviour beneath the surface, not just what’s visible.

Her practice has been shaped by working across very different contexts, from government and global consortiums to sitting with indigenous elders, and Mila brings that into how she holds spaces for people to sense, relate, and move differently together. At the moment, she is closely involved in stewarding the transition of the Inner Development Goals ecosystem, staying with the tension between structure, culture, and what it actually takes to shift how we lead and work.

Let’s get started…

In this conversation with Mila Aliana, I learned:

  • 00:00 Intro – how we met and why I invited Mila Aliana
  • 04:00 How do you become a weaver?
  • 07:00 When we say system, it is relationships that weave together.
  • 08:55 Time is my kin (family)
  • 10:10 Wayfinding is the orientation.
  • 17:25 Control is a coping strategy when we face uncertainty.
  • 19:30 Wayfinding and weaving in the no-map territory.
  • 21:35 Learning from sensing and knowing, and how can it be supported by science?
  • 22:30 We are all participants in life, not answers. We are all relational.
  • 25:20 The land is not a resource; it is our relative. Time is our kin.
  • 25:40 I am part of the relay team that passes down to the next generation.
  • 29:35 The fundamental question: Does it actually matter?
  • 30:10 How do you make it possible for others to become the best version of themselves? (this part is important to me)
  • 32:50 Does it matter to you that you know what the impact is? Why does it matter to you?
  • 35:10 How do we make a living from this work? (important section)
  • 36:10 If I create value, money will follow.
  • 37:55 Translate what you work into something that people can pay for in their language.
  • 40:10 Go where you are invited.
  • 42:40 Separate survival from your purpose.
  • 43:05 Design for mutual reciprocity and not transactional relationships.
  • 45:45 Four criteria for mutual reciprocity in living systems.
    • Does it give mutual benefit to each other?
    • Is it complementary?
    • Are you adaptive to change?
    • Is it readily available?
  • 53:30 Using the spiritual level in the decision-making.
  • 56:55 The trust cultivated about boundaries.
  • 58:05 The misunderstanding of purpose in your work.
  • 1:06:40 Mila asks Erno what he will use tomorrow based on what he has learned in this conversation.
  • 1:09:10 A before and after embodied experience in a workshop or meeting.
  • 1:12:55 Experimentation and adaptive action.
  • 1:15:30 Working in collaboration in a participatory process.

More about Mila Aliana:

Resources we mention:

Video of the conversation with Mila Aliana

Watch the conversation here https://youtu.be/QwbVoipQQ9Q

Summary (created with AI)

In episode 492 of the Decide for Impact podcast, host Erno Hannink interviews Mila Aliana about working in complex, uncharted multi-stakeholder systems and her role as a “chief weaver.”

Mila explains weaving as making visible the relational dynamics, patterns, narratives, and intergenerational tensions that shape behavior in living systems, and wayfinding as sensing an inner compass to move without a clear map by listening to emergence rather than controlling outcomes.

They discuss how silence and culture co-create toxicity (including reflections on rising fascism), how humans are participants in interdependent systems rather than in control, and how impact matters through relationships and ripple effects without needing recognition.

Mila shares practical guidance on earning a living through boundaries, creating value, translating work into clients’ language, building trust-based mutual reciprocity instead of transactional funnels, and choosing projects via deep knowing; they end with applying “before/after” experiences to introduce IDG work and experimenting through collaborative events and questions.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Erno Hannink: Hello, and welcome to episode 492 of the Decide for Impact podcast. Today, you’re listening to the conversation with Mila Aliana. Mila works in the messy, uncharted spaces where complexity lives across industries, sectors, coalitions, and multi-stakeholder systems, where things are no longer working and no one quite knows how to navigate what’s next.

[00:00:29] Erno Hannink: Mila tends to work at the level of patterns and relationships, helping people see what’s really shaping behavior beneath the surface, not just what’s visible. Her practice has been shaped by working across very different contexts, from governments and global consortiums to sitting with indigenous elders, and Mila brings that into how she holds spaces for people to sense, relate, and move differently together.

[00:01:00] Erno Hannink: At the moment, she is closely involved with stewarding the transition of the Inner Development Goals ecosystem, staying with the tension between structure, culture, and what it actually takes to shift how we lead and work. My name is Erno Hannink, and I share my knowledge, experience, and expertise with you.

[00:01:21] Erno Hannink: I coach entrepreneurs so they make decisions that will help them to grow their impact. In this conversation with Mila, I learned so much about working differently based on relationships and how to make impact and how it does maybe impact my personal ego. Let’s get started. Welcome in this new podcast episode.

[00:01:47] Erno Hannink: Today, I’m talking to Mila Aliana

[00:01:52] Mila Aliana: Yes. And- Thank you, Miguel. Very honored …

[00:01:56] Erno Hannink: yes, I am very honored that you’re here, so thank you for being here. I got to know you… I’ve heard your name on several occasions when I w- in the, in the development goals environment. I was very active o- on the Global Practitioners Network.

[00:02:09] Mila Aliana: Yes.

[00:02:10] Erno Hannink: Uh, very active in my own community here that, that we organize meetings every month for, and, uh, then I finally met you in call last year-

[00:02:19] Mila Aliana: Yes, that’s right …

[00:02:20] Erno Hannink: when we had the conversations about the ambassadors, and I found that you were like a breath of fresh air and calmness in all these heated debates that were happening around ambassadors we need, and we need, we need this, and we need this, and-

[00:02:34] Mila Aliana: Yeah

[00:02:34] Erno Hannink: I was going like, “What? What are you, what are you doing?” I didn’t understand what these people were just so mad about.

[00:02:39] Mila Aliana: Yes. A-

[00:02:40] Erno Hannink: and you were just very calm, asking questions, listening, bringing calm to the meeting, and I, I was very impressed with how you did then. I’m very happy that you were there, and even though you were just there a, a day and a half, you just, just very short, ha, like a breath of, a breath of fresh air.

[00:03:00] Erno Hannink: So then I decide… I’m gonna just intro this, right? Yeah, sure. So then I decided to, ‘cause I have this great project, also a large project that I’m working on right now. I’m building my new house with my wife, and so I’m doing all the installation work myself. I wanna be as much as I can with the build, with the builder.

[00:03:19] Erno Hannink: It’s bio-based. It’s, it’s w- wood. It’s everything as, as good as I can afford. So I decided to l- dec- last December to say I’m gonna stop, uh, the Global Practitioners Network. I, I- Yeah … have no space for the monthly meetings to- Yeah … organize everything.

[00:03:34] Mila Aliana: Yeah.

[00:03:34] Erno Hannink: And then the request came along. We have this transition going on.

[00:03:39] Erno Hannink: We need volunteers who w- is willing to help you.

[00:03:42] Mila Aliana: Yeah.

[00:03:42] Erno Hannink: And I felt the calling. I felt like I, I have to do this. I have to be part of this. Yes. I don’t know how to find time, but I have to be part of this. Yes. So that’s how we met again, because you were running this. But that’s just an intro, a long one.

[00:03:55] Mila Aliana: Yes.

[00:03:56] Erno Hannink: But it’s okay. It’s an intro of how I got to know you and h- why I wanna have a conversation with you. My first real question for you is, and you call yourself a, a chief weaver. Well, somebody who’s weaving.

[00:04:09] Mila Aliana: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:09] Erno Hannink: What does a weaver do, and h- how do you become a weaver?

[00:04:14] Mila Aliana: So I think I’ll start with how do you become a weaver?

[00:04:20] Mila Aliana: It’s really organically born because we are all weavers, uh, funnily enough. And it was just a conversation with, um, with one of my clients, and he says, “What do you actually do?” And I, I shared… ‘cause normally when I have clients, they are– it’s very challenging for them to give me a label. I’m not a strategic advisor only.

[00:04:45] Mila Aliana: I’m not a consultant only. I can also coach when I need to. But mainly big, huge collaborations, consortiums into really messy, unchartered territories, or it’s been tried before, but they just don’t know how because it’s so complex, right? And there’s usually multi-stakeholder engagement from various industries and sectors that probably never talked to each other before So one of my clients just said, “So what actually do you do?”

[00:05:17] Mila Aliana: I, you know. And I said, “Well, it’s, it’s really challenging because what I do isn’t just advising, I actually deliver also.” And so it’s how do we translate something that is so uncharted and so complex, and usually people get very stuck because it’s so complex and it’s… people haven’t even attempted to understand how to actually enter a complex system that is constantly adaptive, constantly dynamic, changing every single moment, or that they’ve tried several ways, but it’s just, you know, they’ve, they’ve hired the c- the, the big Mc- McKinseys, the, you know, all the different consultants, very pricey, and it never works.

[00:06:01] Mila Aliana: And fundamentally, the weaving that I call… It’s, it’s actually two things, weaving and wayfinding, which every single individual actually have, and this is part of my indigenous culture. The weaving is not just weaving people. It’s weaving… being able to look at what people, when they come together, what is the relationship they co-create?

[00:06:25] Mila Aliana: What is the dynamics they create, right? And very few look at that. They just look at the individuals, the elements, and it’s not just people. It could be like, uh, the marketing department versus the technology department versus the legal department. But what do you create? What is the, what we call the third entity?

[00:06:44] Mila Aliana: What is the relationship that you create, that you’re weaving, creating, that is invisible, but it’s there? When we have oxygen, it’s invisible, but it’s there. Just try to stop breathing for a second, and you know there’s something that exists that’s co-created not just by ourselves spending out CO2, but also with the planet, with the plants, with everything that…

[00:07:08] Mila Aliana: the atmosphere, everything. So that’s the same because that is how living system works. It’s ne- it… When we say system, it’s really relationship that we co-create that becomes dynamic, that weaves together. And in that, it’s not just relationship between elements and people, it’s relationship between dimensions, between time, between past, present, and future.

[00:07:33] Mila Aliana: That includes narrative, right? So if you have a narrative that’s been, or trauma that’s been intergenerational, that’s wo- woven into the fabric of life from generation to generation and often unexamined. So my weaving is also making what Otto Scharmer talks about, how do you make the system see itself?

[00:07:54] Mila Aliana: So between the sp- stimuli and response, people have freedom of choice of the relationship they’re co-creating that perhaps is no longer supporting them or appropriate for context or fit for the timing. Let’s say like a narrative of you have to go to school for four years, spend so much money that you’ll be coming to debt.

[00:08:18] Mila Aliana: Uh, you have to have a PhD, you have to have a master’s. Is that really true, right? In this time, if you look at Gen Z, um, they’re doing work like nomads, and there’s– they, they’re not having, you know, titles or PhD and whatever, and they’re very, very successful. So sometimes it’s also questioning, weaving what is there to then weave something else that in system we can– we say, you know, what conditions are we creating?

[00:08:47] Mila Aliana: What patterns are we creating that creates a reinforcing behavior that no longer serves us in this moment, in this context? So what can we weave together as relationships, whether it’s people, whether it’s time, whether, you know, to, to fit the context, to fit the uncharted territory that we’re going into.

[00:09:09] Mila Aliana: So that’s what weaving… And in my culture, time is my kin because I’m constantly in relationship to time. Either time can t- can run me, or can I see time as something sometimes I have to surrender because it’s this illusion of control, because those dynamics of co-creating those relationship cannot depend on one person.

[00:09:33] Mila Aliana: So if you take, for example, a culture, if you blame one individual to create the toxicity, if that person leaves, the toxicity still, you know, kind of exists in the, in the co-created culture that allowed for that behavior to continue. So yes, that person still holds responsibility, but the whole culture have weaved that into place.

[00:09:57] Mila Aliana: In this regard, it’s like silence, right? Because there’s no psy– so that the whole group has created a space that is not psychological safe. That is every single individual. It’s not one person that can create that. So if a toxic behavior that continues and continues, and the whole group is silent, that is weaving A toxic behavior that no one wants to take accountability, right?

[00:10:24] Mila Aliana: So I said about wayfinding. So wayfinding is the orientation, but the orientation isn’t something that you analyze on a piece of paper. There is that, but there’s also orientation. So weaving also c- allows for people to access their own kind of compass, inner compass. So think about when you go into a room, you can sense what’s going on into that room, even if you can’t quite articulate it.

[00:10:52] Mila Aliana: There’s a co-created dynamics that’s invisible, and you can feel the tension or the happiness, even if people faces were different, right? So that is something that every individual has access to. That’s kind of being able to access the weaving that is being co-created, not just through the head, but also through like a fine-tuning fork of a piano.

[00:11:14] Mila Aliana: You can… It’s like vibration frequency, and you can’t articulate it. And the wayfinding is like you know that you have to go to this route, right? Your, your, your house, right? You, you have a vision. You have an orientation. It needs to be like this. But you don’t know step by step what that would look like.

[00:11:33] Mila Aliana: You have some kind of vision. You know the builders will bring something, will, you know, to the table, but you have a North Star, right? So that’s … But that’s a wayfinding not only in your head, but some deep knowing. So if you have a whole group of people have a deep knowing, like a social movement, to have the same why, the same North Star Think of, A, the weaving of different ways of behavior that allows for that North Star to manifest consistently.

[00:12:05] Mila Aliana: That’s what I’m talking about weaving and wayfinding, and that is a very indigenous culture, for the wayfinding is basically Polynesians that can cross 10,000 miles across the channel with no navigational tools, modern navigational tools, and use the … even the slightest movement of the wave, they know where w- you know, where tsunamis are coming, where the wind is coming.

[00:12:29] Mila Aliana: They know an island is about … They … So the island appro- um, comes to them instead of them coming to the island, because the vision is so strong that it will manifest itself. And because they know the, the birds and the flock of birds, the temperature, the stars. It’s a lot of different things. We’ve lost it, because we actually have that.

[00:12:51] Mila Aliana: We can orient in, in a room towards something that we know is … It’s not even about morals, but our whole body knows our inner compass. And sometimes we disregard … And, and, um, Arno Mendel talks about quantum flirts. So it’s, it could be like a flirt, but w- we’re so not attuned and present enough to listen to our own inner compass, we forsake it for social conformity or social belonging.

[00:13:23] Mila Aliana: And that’s what I meant by wayfinding. It keeps the integrity. Like, even you with your house, even if you’re going to face challenges, even if you’re now doing some work for the transition working group, even … And even with the transition working group, you just knew, as you said, you just knew. You had an orientation, a wayfinding compass that tells you, “I’m so busy, but I need to be here.”

[00:13:48] Mila Aliana: There’s no logic to that, right? But if we all followed that, guess what will happen, right? Everybody is attuned to a larger kind of vibration that allows us to come together without saying, “Well, I need to influence you to be in the same direction as me,” right? And in the transition working group, that’s what I said.

[00:14:09] Mila Aliana: I said, you know, “If you feel called, then that’s it. But step back if you feel that’s an obligation,” because it’s your whole body that will want you to be there. And that’s how social movement stays for a very long time, because it, it calls into the wayfinding of the inner compass. It calls into all of you co-weaving together new dynamics, new behaviors, new patterns, constant experimenting what works in this context in this time.

[00:14:39] Mila Aliana: That’s basically what weaving means. I hope that covers it a little bit.

[00:14:46] Erno Hannink: That’s a lot.

[00:14:47] Mila Aliana: What are you taking away from it?

[00:14:49] Erno Hannink: Well, I was thinking about the house building And about the systems that you were talking about and the way that I’m now aligning with the sister of- system of the builder, right? The builder has a system of building his house, and I have to kind of like align my calendar, uh, all the time to his, um, work.

[00:15:10] Erno Hannink: Mm-hmm. He’s the leader in this. Obviously, we paid him to build the house. Yes. Um, with- he has a lot of knowledge. We trust him to build a, to build a great house. Um, but also as, as I’m, I’m the owner, but I’m also the installer. I need to be in sync with him every time when next step of the installation needs to be done.

[00:15:30] Erno Hannink: I need to be ready because otherwise he will be stalled, uh, because of the work that I’ve not completed on time. So… And I also thought about the weaving, about the silence you were talking about, right? So the, the… I was thinking about the fascism that is grow- growing- Yes … in, in the world, in Europe as well.

[00:15:50] Erno Hannink: Um, I just read this piece about, um, the changes that was going on in Czechia, um, this morning. And yes, we can take away the leader of, of a nation like that, right? We can say, like they did in, um, Venezuela, you take the leader out, but that doesn’t change a system, right? It just… It’s a temporary shock, but then it just starts again because the system internal in, in this country doesn’t change ‘cause you just take out.

[00:16:16] Erno Hannink: Because people accepted the way that this is happening in the meantime, right? They weaved, like you mentioned, they weave the culture in their, you know, communities and everything. And yes, fascism doesn’t just happen by a leader.

[00:16:30] Mila Aliana: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:31] Erno Hannink: A leader takes chance of the, um, culture, the notion, the feelings that’s there, and just uses that for his story and how he spins it, and usually a he that I’m- Yes

[00:16:43] Erno Hannink: I mean, I would say a she, but this, in this case it’s usually a he. And that’s why he finds a fertile soil to spread his message and to take people along with very clear wording saying, “This is the direction that we are, sh- should be going,” and people will just follow because it’s easier- Yes … to follow a cl- a clear leader- Yes.

[00:17:02] Erno Hannink: Yes … than follow people like you who are very messy, and, and, you know, uh, it’s not clear what w- So you, you, you all the time say, “We are going somewhere in that direction. We know that where we’re coming from, we can’t use anymore. We’re going s- I don’t know where we’re going. We have to do together find where, how we get there.”

[00:17:21] Erno Hannink: Mm-hmm. And it’s a very messy kind of system and- Mm-hmm … and process that we’re in. So for most people that’s very, uh, intimidating and- Yes … and, and confusing and, you know, frightening. And if you look for, um, more certainty and control, uh, this is not the process that you want to be part of. That’s what I’m taking away of this.

[00:17:45] Mila Aliana: And control, as I said, is a coping strategy- Mm … when we are facing uncertainty. So that is, uh, you know, a lot of our behaviors are based on certain conditions or environment that makes us go there because it’s a form of coping strategy. When you don’t have psychological safety, you become silent You’ve…

[00:18:08] Mila Aliana: Or you become, uh, agreeable, or you become defensive, right? So those are coping mechanisms sometimes from human. It’s not an individual trait. It’s co-created in the dynamics that we all co-create together. Mm-hmm. Including, including psychological safety. So the easiest to say that the weaving is about ho- to your point, holding and connecting what is not yet seen, what is not yet connected, people, perspectives, tensions, histories, possibilities, which is really difficult, right?

[00:18:44] Mila Aliana: Because we’re not seeing it, but you’re… We’re trying to weave coherence across all of this that is not yet connected through the sensing, right? Through the sensing, and the wayfinding is, is basically how do you move when there’s no clear path. That’s what you said, basically. And it’s not about finding the way with certainty, but finding the way by listening to the system as it unfolds.

[00:19:13] Mila Aliana: So in a way, how my work fits together with weaving, which is a very specific skill. So I, I don’t have, you know, websites or anything like that because it’s all referrals. The weaving and wayfinding are inseparable in the way I operate ‘cause the weaving creates the relational feel. So that relational feel is not just humans, right?

[00:19:34] Mila Aliana: So it’s looking at the patterns, at the tensions, at the possibilities, and weaving that together to make it conscious by listening to the system, not trying to control it. Then the wayfinding moves within that field by listening to the system as it inf- unfolds from one emergence to another. So basically, my work is always in uncharted territories because there’s no map.

[00:20:00] Mila Aliana: And most people run the other way. I run towards it because that’s where the most possibility of change will happen, and not incremental change. And how do you weave the relationship in the no map territory, and how do you sense to navigate in that as it emerges, not as you control it? So then the system kind of moves forward together, and that gives the most satisfaction because you have everyone gains their own dignity and their own kind of agency, individual as well as collective, in solidarity to move forward in a system that is starting to just manifest itself, and we’re co-creating it from moment to moment.

[00:20:48] Erno Hannink: I, I, I was remembering one other thing I thought about was, and, and you’re, you’re now talking about this as well, is how we as humans in general feel that we are in the center of everything, that we need to control because we are the, the species who knows the most, who’s the most experienced, has most brain, so that’s why we should be on top of everything.

[00:21:12] Erno Hannink: And as you describing, it is more like a system and we are, like, a part of the system, right? It’s not just a system of, uh, a technological thing or, like, a organizational thing. Um, not even just a community thing. But it’s, it’s a system of everything, right? It’s a system of how we are part of, of the whole.

[00:21:34] Mila Aliana: Yeah.

[00:21:35] Erno Hannink: And, and then you spoke about, about your, your past, about wh- where you’re coming from, about your, your relatives, your relationships from the past. D- do you think that somehow the culture where you’re coming from has more respect for this being part of the whole system or… and not being on top of the system, or is it something that you’ve learned yourself differently?

[00:22:04] Mila Aliana: So it’s both. So I had– I grew up with that culture, but also I was a curious learner, so I always wanted to see how does the things that I’m learning from sensing and knowing this is kind of the truth, how can it be supported by science? And as we know, the science have caught up with some of not just indigenous, but some of the rural communities, even your ancestry have caught up with some of the things that our ancestry, uh, across the world, and I, I’m, I’m mainly using ancestry rather just indigenous because we’re all indigenous to our land.

[00:22:52] Mila Aliana: So there has been a lot of wisdom and knowledge that now the science have shared. And fundamentally, that we are all participants in life, not answers, right? And fundamentally, that we are all relational, that everything is interdependent, so everything matters, whether it’s time, whether it’s relationship.

[00:23:14] Mila Aliana: So as for example So, uh, when we had COVID, and before that I already knew that there’s no CEO in your body. Every morning you wake up, it’s already cleaned up. Uh, all the toxin has been taken out when you’re sleeping. There’s no CEO. You are not in control of your body, and that’s the same as life itself.

[00:23:38] Mila Aliana: So during COVID, I found out how our immune system works. It has a whole war strategy of, I don’t know, four or five different battalions that face any kind of, um, im- uh, kind of disease. There’s the first battalion, then the second battalion, the third battalion, and no one, especially our intelligence, control that.

[00:24:00] Mila Aliana: It’s something that happens organically that because the kidney and the heart and the, you know, liver are working together There’s … If, if we … The kidney just says, “Oh, I’m gonna work w- by myself, and I can control everything,” our whole body would die. The same thing with the whole living system that we all sit in.

[00:24:22] Mila Aliana: There’s nested ecosystem that are all interrel- in- interrelated. So as, as a young kind of indigenous or from my ancestors, we knew that. We knew that because it’s how life works a- around us all the time. But the sciences have, have proven that, but unfortunately, I don’t think it’s gone into education where it’s now cellular.

[00:24:47] Mila Aliana: Most people who live with the land, who live in nature, it’s cellular. We know that everything is interconnected, um, through time. And time, as one example, in what? Our, our Earth was created 4.6 billion years ago. It took a billion years to get water onto Earth, right? And it was apparently part of it was alien form.

[00:25:11] Mila Aliana: Another billion years before oxygen that nearly killed us to come on Earth. So time can be very, very long, but it’s still very much interrelational. And so coming back to what you’re s- you’re saying, if we place our … we are the center of everything, yet the world exists around us, for us, are all dependent of each other, then how are we s- the center of it when we can’t even s- be the center of our own body, right?

[00:25:44] Mila Aliana: So that’s … And, and that has never been forgotten in the indigenous ways of knowing across the world, including our ancestors. If you really live in nature, that’s never something that’s not forgotten, that the land is not a resource but it’s our relative. The time is our kin, is not the past behind us, but also present and also future.

[00:26:07] Mila Aliana: And our ancestors’ knowledge continues like a relay team. So everything that I do is beyond my lifetime because I’m just part of the relay team that passes down to the next generation. It’s not gonna happen, Mila, hero of the century. That this is, this is what living system … So living system or nature, its governance system is relationship It’s not control.

[00:26:34] Mila Aliana: There’s no policy. There’s no 1,000 pages document. It’s all about how do we stay connected in order for, for the work to be done because everything is interdependent. Similar to my body. The kidney can’t go off and say, “You know, I’m going to create my own profit entity and not rely and completely compete with the liver and the, you know, with the heart.”

[00:26:59] Mila Aliana: Then my body would just die, and this is the illusion of control, the illusion of separation that most humans often, including myself, are arrogantly thinking when we try to control almost everything in our life, when actually part of our lives is not anything that we can control except how we show up.

[00:27:20] Mila Aliana: That is in our control

[00:27:24] Erno Hannink: It feels very comforting on one end, right? That y- um, uh, for me, let’s put it that way. I make it, I will make it personal. For me, it feels, feels very comfortable, um, not knowing that I’m not in control. I’m just a part, a tiny part of the whole continuous circle, like the relay team like you just said.

[00:27:42] Erno Hannink: So I have no dreams or ego or hope that I will become famous because I think it’s not really, it’s not important, right? So maybe a person is famous for a couple hundred years, but-

[00:27:57] Mila Aliana: Mm-hmm …

[00:27:58] Erno Hannink: like 8 billion are not, right? So it’s like a tiny- Yeah … tiny, tiny part of the people who are famous for a couple hundred years, but then they’re forgotten anyway.

[00:28:06] Mila Aliana: Yes.

[00:28:06] Erno Hannink: Maybe like the Romans, right, the Roman emperors, but it’s all history. But it’s, but, you know, that’s not a lot of people, uh, compared to the amount of time that we’ve spent on this planet already.

[00:28:16] Mila Aliana: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:28:16] Erno Hannink: And so it’s very liberating to think that you don’t have to… I don’t, let’s, again, make it personal.

[00:28:21] Erno Hannink: I don’t have to worry about to become famous or whatever because it’s not really important. At the same time, I feel it’s kind of like scary, or not scary. It’s-

[00:28:32] Mila Aliana: Discomfort.

[00:28:34] Erno Hannink: Yeah, because the thing is, does it really matter what I do, right? So that’s, again, a similar feeling that I’m having, right? So I’m, at the same time I believe, okay, I’m, I can do whatever I want because it’s not important I become famous, so I can do really important stuff, right?

[00:28:47] Erno Hannink: I can do the things that I think is really important, like building things that are for the next generations, um, so that we build a, a place where the next generations can thrive or live without a lot of discomfort that we’ve experienced. Mm-hmm. That we tend to, you know, we may experience- Mm-hmm … in the future.

[00:29:05] Erno Hannink: But at the same time, it also feels like sometimes I feel like, wow, does it really matter what I do? ‘Cause, ‘cause y- y- you don’t see the consequences of what you do or just it takes a long time. Like this afternoon, you mentioned something that you worked on, right? A project, um, that you worked on, and it took- Three years

[00:29:26] Erno Hannink: three years, three years, right? To get it… And it’s, i- in the long space, like you mentioned time, it’s our kin, it’s not… It’s a long thing, right? It’s not like three years is, is nothing. It’s like, it’s like a breath into total. Mm-hmm. But of your life as an individual- Mm-hmm … it’s three years. It’s a long time, and you have to make sure that you, we’re talking about all the, having all the connections, having all the conversation with all these parties and all these people involved.

[00:29:49] Erno Hannink: So there I get the feelings that does it really matter what I do? And then, of course, you get a confirmation because then there were three new laws coming up, and now you have a law for, um, people, young people under 16 are not allowed to be on social media because it’s really toxic. So yes, that’s something I feel like on and off, right?

[00:30:10] Mila Aliana: Yeah.

[00:30:11] Erno Hannink: I need to do that. It’s something that I feel is con- you know, for the next generations important. Does it really matter what I do?

[00:30:20] Mila Aliana: Yes. So does it actually matter, right? So that’s the fundamental question. So it matters, but not in the way we’re thinking. Not as a legacy, not as recognition, not as something that I c- we can measure or I can measure or guarantee, right?

[00:30:46] Mila Aliana: But it’s what matters is in the relationship and the learning that you get out of it, because we’re only here for one life. And how do you make possible for others in that moment to be the best versions of themself? How do you create n- nourishing soils for others, even if you can never see them grow? In living system, nothing is wasted.

[00:31:10] Mila Aliana: Everything is regurgitated. Abundance constantly flows. It doesn’t stay in one place. But nothing is controlled either So the question is more, does it matter what I do? But can I do what feels– can I do feels true even if I never know or be attached to what it becomes? Can I be part of life moving without needing to be the one who makes it matter?

[00:31:42] Mila Aliana: Especially if we’re going to be one part of solidarity. So the kidney doesn’t get, uh, confirmation, but my whole body does. It keeps me alive. Same thing with the living system, right? And let’s, let’s loosen, kind of be very real of what one can do, right? So have you ever had an, an opportunity where you talk to someone many years ago, and then later on they come back to you and said, “Do you know that one time you said something, it has helped me to be the person that I am today”?

[00:32:22] Mila Aliana: That has happened to me a couple of times, and I’ve heard other people. So sometimes we don’t even know. It could be such a inconsequential, uh, kind of sentence, task, word, but it has a ripple effect. And the science have proven this, right? So that something, a tiny ripple, let’s say a stone that you throw in a pond that follows a stream that goes into the river, that goes into sea, has ripple effect underneath.

[00:32:54] Mila Aliana: And this is scientifically proven that there’s something… They call it the butterfly effect, right? So if you have a, a f- you, you flap your wings in one corner of the world, suddenly it will cr-create a thunderstorm. I mean, it’s not to that point. But think about how movement actually starts. That one person, Einstein, for ex-for example, he, he created all of this amazing work.

[00:33:24] Mila Aliana: But then one day at a certain point in time, he was at a certain place at the right timing, and something had a ripple effect. And sometimes you don’t even know until months later or never know until you die. So the question is, does it matter to you that you know? But what matters is that it does impact whether you know it or not.

[00:33:49] Mila Aliana: But the question then becomes, does it matter to you? And why does it matter to you if you are already impacting whether you’re not, you know it or not? Because there’s so many invisible patterns that are happening, even you showing up to do some of the online work, it’s already impacting a lot of people at reading, um, the online platform and the transition that we do.

[00:34:14] Mila Aliana: And you don’t know how much that has impacted them So the question is, does it matter what I do or does it matter that I don’t know what I do- Mm-hmm … that has impacted everyone? Because then that, that takes away in our kind of culture is like, what can I do that goes beyond my lifetime?

[00:34:35] Erno Hannink: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:36] Mila Aliana: Because beyond my lifetime I’m already dead.

[00:34:38] Mila Aliana: I don’t know what would happen, right? Um, and it’s not work by Mila. It’s work with Erno, with everybody else. It’s not one person because not one person can make these changes in the world. It’s, it takes a whole village to educate a child. Takes a whole village for us to move, and everywhere you see in life, it’s not one stone or one leaf that’s gonna make changes.

[00:35:04] Mila Aliana: It’s everything in synchronicity of ecosystems that are interdependent of each other that’s going to make those ripple effects.

[00:35:13] Erno Hannink: Mm-hmm. Okay, then I feel, I feel it. So I, I, s- I’m not saying I’m not struggling with it. I will stu- I will still struggle with it, but I feel it. Then there is a question that I think really has a lot of people who work in this space of inner development, for example, or the SDGs struggle with.

[00:35:33] Erno Hannink: H- how do I make a living from this?

[00:35:36] Mila Aliana: Yes.

[00:35:36] Erno Hannink: Right? So you do, um, this work for the inner development goals at the moment as a volunteer, right? Mm-hmm. And then you have all these other projects going on, and I think what a lot of people are interested in, h- how do you find ways to make a living from all these projects and at the same time do…

[00:36:00] Erno Hannink: contribute to, you know, the future of the next generations?

[00:36:06] Mila Aliana: Yeah. So the key is, one, boundaries. So I, I give my time voluntarily because I also receive a lot of, um, kind of pay or, uh, renumeration that’s quite substantial for me to say to myself, “I want to give back. How do I pay forward?” But also being very clear of boundaries, not to overgive, um, carry purpose to, to then burn out, which a lot of change makers do, and social entrepreneurs, by the way.

[00:36:46] Mila Aliana: So there is a clear system design gap where people who gives value do not get renumerated. Unfortunately, this is the capitalistic system that we’re in. So how do I make living a living but I stay true and be of integrity to the work that I’m doing without, without making myself disappear because then I’m not completely valued, don’t end up earning?

[00:37:13] Mila Aliana: So the number one motto that I’ve followed since I been working for 30, 40 years, and sometimes I have to pause and surrender to it- is that if I create value, money will follow. And I’ve done this for, um, startups, so I’ve set up my own and it became very successful twice. Because I did– I created value and it wasn’t something that I fell in love with my own product, which is a very typical startup phase.

[00:37:44] Mila Aliana: You fall in love with your product, your service. What I did was I created it and talked to my potential customers and co-created that product or service through understanding the exact needs of the customer, not literally what they say. So similar to Ford, he asked his customers, you know, for the car manufacturer, would– what would you like to have?

[00:38:10] Mila Aliana: And they said, “Faster horses.” So our job is to translate that. And so he then went back and forth, and that’s what I did. What I understood was always, how do I work with the very people that I’m actually serving, whether it’s a for-profit or not-for-profit? How do I co-create? And as you know, in the transition working group with the volunteers, how do I co-create how we move forward together?

[00:38:36] Mila Aliana: Not by myself, because that’s the only way that it can sustain itself beyond myself. And everybody then sees value because it’s not about me. It’s not about my product, it’s not about my service. It’s what people need, and I’m serving what people are needing. So to ground it into very real pathways Translate what you work into something that people can pay for in their language.

[00:39:03] Mila Aliana: So right now, if I said system sensing, regeneration, because I’m a regenerative practitioner also, one of the things I say, “Well, do you face challenges in navigating complexity?” Most times, yes, right? Leadership and uncertainty. Do you have fragmentation in your organization? And how do you make decisions in transition, right?

[00:39:26] Mila Aliana: So you’re clearly framing the value, and sometimes I don’t even say it, like inner development. I give the experience, a brief experience of what that is, and then people go, “Oh, I get it.” And often my clients would say, “Yeah, I … Mila doesn’t have a label, but when she does it, you know it,” right? So , right? So it’s, it’s really understanding yourself and understanding your cust- But in order to understand your customers or the people who can pay, you have to do a lot of listening.

[00:40:01] Mila Aliana: You have to do a lot of not falling in love with your product or services, falling in love with their needs, with their challenges. So some of the work that I’m doing is with family offices, as you know, like, so I would … I’ve been asking for three years now for next gen, uh, philanthropists, family offices, wealthy individuals.

[00:40:21] Mila Aliana: I don’t ask for money. I literally just say, you know, “What are your chal- what keeps you up at night?” And I’m starting to see patterns, and I’m starting to build relationship. And w- I’ve learned a long time ago when I was managing, like, hundreds and hundreds of projects and programs, I was working with a sales and marketing team, and they were one of the best sales team in the world.

[00:40:44] Mila Aliana: And, and the marketing and sales team told me that they never sell anything. They do not sell. They build relationship. And through the relationship, there’s trusted, you know, trusted long-term kind of build-up. So when something is happening, they go, “Oh, do you know, I think your organization is doing this.

[00:41:07] Mila Aliana: I’d love to try out your product.” So they never sell the product or service. It’s only when they see there’s a challenge and there’s a match, that’s when they talk about it, or an invitation. And that’s another cultural motto that I have, which is, don’t go where you’re not invited, because then it’s harder.

[00:41:27] Mila Aliana: You have to spend lots of money to market, behavioral, you know, scientists to nudge people to like your product. But if people are already trusting you, people are– you’re already building rela– they see the value for them. And the other thing that I do is not only for the person, for the, that I’m giving service to, the customer or the beneficiaries, how does that value add value not only to their ecosystem but, but the ecosystem that rely on them and the ecosystem that it actually impacts?

[00:42:04] Mila Aliana: Because then you’re, you’re dealing with the nested ecosystem, the ripple effect that we talked about, not just dir- to the direct customers, but to the people across. So for example If the, your product and services serve your customer, but it doesn’t serve their suppliers, right? Like for SDG, for example.

[00:42:27] Mila Aliana: SDG sometimes even in family offices, they have to f- meet the ESG, et cetera. So the, the actual cost goes down into the downstream to the suppliers. So then you have to think about if this, this is the case, you’re creating ESG for your c- for your business, especially for family offices, how do you ensure that it doesn’t go down to the suppliers who don’t even have that much money, and so you’re impacting them.

[00:42:56] Mila Aliana: So it will stop. So the people that’s relying on you or bringing in, um, bringing in some kind of value to your product is also going broke. There’s no way that you– that can continue going forward, right? You just find other suppliers, but then other suppliers will also, uh, run out of money eventually. So it’s understanding not only the person that you’re serving, how can you co-create the value with them, but co-create the value for the whole ecosystem.

[00:43:25] Mila Aliana: So the whole ecosystem would want you to survive, and that’s basically how I get paid. Um, and it’s a– and you s- you separate survival from purpose, right? Um, because if it’s you’re focusing on scarcity, people can smell that a mile away. So, you know, what is it that you really are of integrity coming back to your way finding?

[00:43:51] Mila Aliana: What is it that’s uniquely yours? And it’s, it’s not– So we can have the same shades of blue, but I deliver a, a, a way of a shade of blue that’s different to you, and it’s not me and you competing. It’s just certain people like my shade of blue, and some people like your shade of blue. If people realize that, then they would collaborate even more, and this is what we call mutual reciprocity.

[00:44:17] Mila Aliana: You design for reciprocity, not design for transactional relationships, and that’s when you start getting, uh, money, and people follow the value, and they would be willing to pay the money for that. It needs to flow in many multiple ways.

[00:44:36] Erno Hannink: Yes, and what I see is that, and that has a lot to do with the capitalistic neoliberal system that we are in, is that people love control, right?

[00:44:48] Erno Hannink: Yeah. So if we, if we put in $100 into advertising and we get $102 out, we can spend $1,000 and we get 110,000, uh, uh, uh, $1,100, uh, uh- Yeah … dollars. So-

[00:45:05] Erno Hannink: So we see people doing this. We see people, um, trying to scale, um, connections, trying to scale context, trying to, trying to scale, um, um, uh, points of, of, um, of moments where they are in front of, uh, potential customers, and the only thing that they care about is how many people in the end come out of the funnel, right?

[00:45:26] Erno Hannink: Yeah. So they, they, they just- Yeah … say, “Oh, my message goes to 1,000 people, and when I get 10, that’s fine with me.” And your… The way I see it, what you do, and, and I, I love what you do, is that you care more about, like, 20 people, and have conversations with 20 people, and, like, five of those come out, and they call you at a certain point.

[00:45:52] Erno Hannink: You don’t know when, but they call you at a certain point saying, “Oh, I have this issue right now, and I have the feeling that you can help me here.” And there’s, like, two projects out there as well who are interested in your work, and they can’t afford to pay you, and you decide, “Oh, yeah, I really want to support this work,” and then you do that.

[00:46:09] Erno Hannink: And it’s a, it’s a way of working that is built a lot on trust, on the trust o- of yourself, of… That you can, you, you can sustain in this way of living, that you can survive, in a way. Mm-hmm. Um, but it’s also trusting in the system that at some point, like you just mentioned before, when you, when you do the right things, money will follow, right?

[00:46:34] Erno Hannink: When you, when you, when you make impact, when you have impact on people, the money will follow. So you trust the system. And I think that’s a very different way that people today are trained, um, of how we should work. And we can see it in the inner development world, where there’s practitioners who really, really want to work with inner development goals- Yeah

[00:46:55] Erno Hannink: in a way that they like to make money with them.

[00:46:57] Mila Aliana: Yes. Yes.

[00:46:58] Erno Hannink: And the only thing they care about is how many people see the inner development goals in front of them, or how many people they can sell it to- Yeah … instead of really caring about people, how we make the change internally as a community, as a, as, as people, and so that we can contribute to a different, a better world for the next generations.

[00:47:19] Mila Aliana: Yeah. And- It’s not wrong. No. It’s just be in right relationship. So in living system, it’s called mutual reciprocity.

[00:47:30] Erno Hannink: Mm.

[00:47:30] Mila Aliana: There’s four criteria based on if you look at biomimicry, they were funded by 20 big corporations to find out what was mutual reciprocity like in living system, and it’s very easy. Um, so if we go move to transactional, what you’re talking about is, for me, it’s transactional.

[00:47:52] Mila Aliana: So I give you value, you give me value, but it’s just what’s in it for me. There’s no relationship. If anything happens between us, I’ll just drop you and find somebody else, right? That’s very transactional, and that’s very, very much what has been happening throughout many, many organization, and that’s okay.

[00:48:10] Mila Aliana: This is, this is the mainstream. But with trusted relationship, as I said, the greater salespeople don’t do that. They don’t sell. They create relationship. Marketing, they build relationship, and that has a longer term. And the key question there is, are we able to support each other and learn from each other?

[00:48:34] Mila Aliana: And whether there’s, uh, we have to navigate a- across challenges, we will still support each other. So in the old days C- company, the word company comes from Latin word of companere, which means we break bread together. That’s how commerce started. It was through relationship. They bartered the bread with the chicken and whatever, but they sat down and ate and drank together.

[00:49:05] Mila Aliana: That is the word company, and yet right now it’s all about competition. And actually, in living system, competition is available but very limited. It’s actually collaboration that makes people be able to go, um, and survive. You know, Charles Darwin was misquoted to say it’s survival of the fittest, but actually it’s survival of the most adaptive, adaptive to each other, right?

[00:49:30] Mila Aliana: So mutual reciprocity, there’s four criteria. One, you’ll, you’ll, you’ll understand this because you see it in living system, you see it in your body. Number one, does it give mutual benefit to each other? Yeah, so that’s the first one that in most transaction is do I get benefit? Do you get benefit? Fine, but that’s it, right?

[00:49:50] Mila Aliana: The second one is, is it complementary? So even if we are providing the sh- the same shades of blue, the same product, but there’s something, something that is specifically mine, specifically yours, that’s complementary. The third one is all about are you adaptive to change, right? If I– if suddenly my business because of COVID doesn’t work, are you going to just drop me?

[00:50:17] Mila Aliana: Or do we find a way to adapt? Like, you know, certain places that just suddenly, um, started creating, um, what’s it called? Um, those-

[00:50:27] Erno Hannink: Masks.

[00:50:28] Mila Aliana: Mask, right? Um, they came together and created masks that they weren’t doing. They, they were doing plastic or something. So that’s being adaptive together because that is how living system, you have to constantly changing, so how do you do that?

[00:50:43] Mila Aliana: And I think that the third one is about, oh, availability. So if I need you to support me, um, with your complementary product or service, y- I don’t wait for you to go off and study it for a year or that you have to wait for the transport to arrive a year later, right? So that’s is it, uh, readily available?

[00:51:07] Mila Aliana: So that’s what it means by mutual reciprocity That’s kind of the logic kind of living system. But fundamentally, it’s all about breaking bread together, and the relationship just happens. And I know someone who works with land, and he’s a property agent for wealthy family businesses across the whole of the UK.

[00:51:29] Mila Aliana: And he says, “I’m not really a land estate re- property, uh, estate agent because all of my family estate landowners who typically hold their land for decades for their children, whatever,” treats him as his… their psychotherapist. They’ll just call him, you know, “Oh, I’ve had this,” because of the relationship.

[00:51:49] Mila Aliana: But guess where those landlords would go to when they’re ready to sell the land? And in one go, one fell swoop, he will have millions by selling that land because he will get a percentage from it. And this happened to me so many times where I’ve had to invest in something, trusted it, and within a… And this has happened several times now.

[00:52:14] Mila Aliana: Within a month I got, you know, a six or seven-figure income to do a, a project which had… It felt like there was no relationship between one or the other, but I knew differently. I knew there was something that I gave value, and for some reason there was something in the air, and sometimes they even know each other and, and because of that, then I get offered.

[00:52:39] Mila Aliana: I might… Sometimes I’m not even right for the job. I don’t have the skills. I don’t have the qualifications. But because they trust me and they see the work, I get the job. I get the contract. So it is more longer term, and I don’t have to prove anything. That’s the other thing. If, if you have to have it transactional, you’re constantly trying to prove that you are the right person.

[00:53:06] Mila Aliana: But if there’s this trusted relationship, there’s no micromanaging. They just trust you, and most of my work is there’s no micromanaging. I get full authority, full budget, and I do- I just report once, once, you know, at, at regular time, but I don’t get somebody asking me left, right, and center, “Have you done this?

[00:53:26] Mila Aliana: Have you done that?” Because there’s mutual trust. So it’s a very different type of relationship type of work, and it, it becomes very spacious for all parties It’s still, it’s still challenging because, you know, people are messy, and I always say design for messy, uh, including myself. But that part of the work, I don’t need to prove myself in the way that typically one would have to do if it was very transactional.

[00:53:56] Erno Hannink: Yeah. The interesting part if, if you look at your LinkedIn profile, for example, there’s not a lot of confirmation of what you do and what projects you’ve run and, um, no website, you know, n- million followers, nothing like that. And still when, when, when I talk with you, when I speak with you, um, y- it’s very clear that you’ve done some really great projects, um, in the past.

[00:54:20] Mila Aliana: Yeah.

[00:54:21] Erno Hannink: So, so I think it also makes it easier for people to have a conversation with you. Mm-hmm. Um, there’s no reason for them to look up to you, to feel threatened by you, to… Oh, they sometimes may, um, uh, show their own ego and, um, but

[00:54:39] Mila Aliana: I- Oh, sometimes I get dismissed-

[00:54:41] Erno Hannink: Yeah, I can ima- … with- I can imagine. Yeah.

[00:54:43] Erno Hannink: Yeah, yeah. I can

[00:54:44] Mila Aliana: imagine. Which is wonderful. I love

[00:54:46] Erno Hannink: being dismissed.

[00:54:48] Mila Aliana: You get shit done.

[00:54:51] Erno Hannink: And there was, uh, another thing I’m wondering about is how do you make decisions on which… Because i- if you, if you, if, like you, you trust the system, projects come to you at the right time, how do you make decisions of what projects you take on and which ones do you pass on?

[00:55:12] Mila Aliana: So this comes to my spiritual level, and I might have your participants starting to wonder about me, but I don’t apologize for it because I tell my clients. So the decisions is a deep, deep knowing, the way finding. So I’ll give an example. So I was invited to be the board, and this is not paying, but volunteering to be the board of IDG.

[00:55:37] Mila Aliana: At first, I heard many, many… I was skeptic. But then my whole deep knowing, my body didn’t want it, but my deep knowing said, “No, you have to be here.” And as you know, it’s quite a struggle, especially during this transition. Many times I’ve had even told the board that I’m ready to quit because, you know, it’s volunteering long hours.

[00:56:01] Mila Aliana: But there’s a huge deep knowing, like you had a deep knowing about although you have a lot on, you have to be in this transition working group. Similar to me, because I feel there’s something sacred that this is about to happen that we– none of us know. I don’t know what it is. I’m not, I’m not going to be known for it.

[00:56:22] Mila Aliana: I’m not going to… But there is something that is hugely strong, and this is the same in almost every work that I have, and I’m paid very well. And that is like, why? When the first time I’m offered, I’m going… The first time I was with s– I was offered a role that was work with scientists, technologists, all very heady people and tech– uh, yeah, technologists, AI, scientists, academic.

[00:56:52] Mila Aliana: And I’m going, “What in the hell am I doing here?” Because that’s not something that I, I like, right? It’s just so heady And it took six months for me to then understand what it was. And it went to this law that I ended up ha- There was no relationship at the very beginning. I wouldn’t have known if I did not go through the six months, and then that after six months, that was the offer on the table.

[00:57:20] Mila Aliana: There was nothing that gave me any indication that I will be impacting 80 million children in a law and was well, you know, well-paid, well-supported. So that’s what I’m saying. But I had a deep knowing in that first moment, and it started out as a voluntary, voluntary role. And I knew that I needed to stay.

[00:57:43] Mila Aliana: I really wanted to leave, but I knew I wanted to stay. And again, the same thing happened. I had five patterns of different people from across the world referring me to a role, um, to a en- entity, an organization that each one of them didn’t know each other. One from, was it from Brussels, introduced me to someone in San Jose.

[00:58:07] Mila Aliana: San Jose took me back to Berlin. Within a day of each other, half an hour, they just met me. And these are people who just met me, not even … But they knew the trusted relationships that I had. We had mutual connections, and they knew about my work. And then I was referred to another person in New Jersey. By that time, I was given a role and literally a, a job, right?

[00:58:30] Mila Aliana: So I didn’t, I didn’t say I wanted a role. From the very beginning, it was through the trusted relationship, and the moment we spoke, the person said, “I think you’re the person that’s right for the job.” Right? So it’s, it’s that… And then sometimes I will be offered a really great paying role with a great title, and I would say no On the other flip coin.

[00:58:55] Mila Aliana: Because I could feel it. I could feel in my bones that this is, this is, you know… And this is the trust that I have cultivated about boundaries, where are my boundaries. Because it can… I call it the shiny object. It’s very shiny. It’s an MD, it’s a CEO role, lots of money, lots of bling-bling, and whatever. But I just knew in my, in my soul it, it was, it would be so problematic in many ways.

[00:59:25] Mila Aliana: And it’s n- now that I’m so much older, I know where I need to go. Not… So I don’t go for survival, I don’t go for scarcity. If I go for scarcity, I know it’s the wrong thing. Then I have to find a different way to get funding, um, rather than, yes, of course, we need to, to s- you know, if there’s no money on the table, you need this.

[00:59:49] Mila Aliana: Then find something that just kind of brings you some money, but not necessarily the money, right? But you’re, you’re, you’re not committing for long term. And you can have two, three work. And sometimes what I’ve been told, this whole purpose thing, is actually misunderstood. Because you can have two or three roles that is not your purpose work, but you can then create your purpose role just to get your income.

[01:00:18] Mila Aliana: So there’s many different ways, and I don’t think the way that I do things, I invite everybody else to do it. Because it, you know, it was specific contextually to me. My invitation is to find your own way, but to not be guided by scarcity. If you are guided by scarcity, find something to t- tie you over for a while, but be very clear of the way-finding where you don’t know where it’s trying to take you, but you know you…

[01:00:47] Mila Aliana: That’s where you’re heading. Like your, your house, right? Like knowing that you have to be transition working, but you didn’t know what it was. It was just a very deep knowing. And sometimes we don’t listen. That’s why I say this quantum flirt. Because it’s like a flirt, but you’re not listening to it. If you’re not present to it and really understanding what you’re here for, um, it’s very different.

[01:01:10] Mila Aliana: So sometimes I, I’m, I fire my own clients Mm-hmm. Because, because it, it, it gives so much problems. More… So there’s something different about getting into challenges and politics, but then if it becomes more into integrity and more into, I don’t know, some ethical challenges, that may be the time for, for you to step back.

[01:01:38] Erno Hannink: Mm-hmm.

[01:01:38] Mila Aliana: Even if, if it’s paying really, really well

[01:01:45] Mila Aliana: And we often don’t do that, especially if we have a business. But down the line, it will create so much problem You know? And we see this again and again and again. And so when you have these kind of long-term trusted relationship, it’s a lo- it’s a safety net that you don’t have to think about so much

[01:02:07] Erno Hannink: Yeah, I remember the words that I wrote down after our meeting in Amsterdam a couple months- Mm-hmm

[01:02:14] Erno Hannink: a couple weeks ago. Uh, the, the difference between transactional and relational. Um, so I wrote down for myself, I need to, I need to focus more… I want… No, not I need. I want to focus more on relational work, relationships-

[01:02:31] Mila Aliana: Yeah …

[01:02:32] Erno Hannink: um, instead of transactional relationships. So yeah, I’ve, I’ve… I think I’m not, I’m not perfect in that sense, but I’ve…

[01:02:43] Erno Hannink: I do believe, I do believe- I think none- I, I do believe in the importance of it for myself. Yeah. Yes.

[01:02:49] Mila Aliana: And I think none of us are perfect.

[01:02:52] Erno Hannink: Yeah.

[01:02:53] Mila Aliana: But it’s just about experimenting what works for each one of us, right? So I’m not condoning anyone to follow my footsteps because- Mm … it’s my, it’s my context. So and so think about we met a few weeks ago in person with other people.

[01:03:08] Mila Aliana: Look, within what, a month, we’re, we’re now able to do a three-day event, one for family business, the other for business, uh, businesses and institution, and the third for youth. Who would have said that? Because I trusted. Remember I said in Amsterdam, I knew something was going to happen in Amster- I trusted it, and I didn’t know.

[01:03:28] Mila Aliana: I didn’t plan it. It’s only when we started sitting down, something emerged in the energy of us co-creating. This is the weaving that happened- Yeah … in that room.

[01:03:39] Erno Hannink: Yeah.

[01:03:39] Mila Aliana: And look where we are now, and this is, this is manifesting in real life, and people don’t believe it. When it’s ready, if you really listen to it, it flows so naturally.

[01:03:50] Mila Aliana: And because we all trusted, had a real trust already between us, I was with Erno… not Erno, with, uh, Ricco already in ambassador program. I got to know Ivy through Asa. You know from Transition Working Group. There was already an established trust even though we don’t know each other that well.

[01:04:09] Erno Hannink: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:10] Mila Aliana: But it flew, like, you know, with Peter Senge going, “Yes!”

[01:04:14] Mila Aliana: And then now we’ve got artists coming. We got you coming. Um, family offices. Who would have known? If I said that at the very start of our conversation, all of you would be like, “No, no, no. That’s too difficult. That’s too challenging.” In a month we’ve already… We’re about to send out the invitation this week, right?

[01:04:33] Mila Aliana: So it’s, it’s something that’s possible, and that’s why people don’t believe in it. Mm-hmm. But when, when things, the energy wants to move, the same in the Transition Working Group, that’s the listening.

[01:04:44] Erno Hannink: Right.

[01:04:45] Mila Aliana: When is the timing ready, right? Yeah. And I feel the timing is ready. It’s just how are we getting ready for it, too?

[01:04:52] Mila Aliana: How do we prepare ourselves? Yeah.

[01:04:54] Erno Hannink: Yeah. Yeah. What I love about the way that you talk about this is not saying- that you’re the expert and people should work like this, right? So because I was listening to Barry, I forgot his last name, but he’s about- he’s from the channel Barry Economics on, on YouTube. I will link his in the show notes.

[01:05:13] Erno Hannink: Mm-hmm. And Barry was talking about how, um, channels like, um, you know, these great experts who have these interviews, podcast interviews with all these other experts, like the, um, uh, the guy who interviews all these CEOs.

[01:05:28] Mila Aliana: Yeah.

[01:05:29] Erno Hannink: And he says, actually what he’s doing is the opposite of making us better. What he want- what he’s doing is just showing us stories of people who are looking now back on their, um, career and saying, “This has worked for me, for me,” right?

[01:05:42] Erno Hannink: Yeah. Yeah. “So you should copy that, uh, because this is working.” Yeah.

[01:05:45] Mila Aliana: Yeah.

[01:05:45] Erno Hannink: Which is not true. It, it just worked in your instance and it just worked in this situation and you were just very lucky that this… Because if you say, if you, if you get up at 5:00 AM in the morning, you do like a cold bath and you do read and you do all this other stuff, right?

[01:06:00] Erno Hannink: That makes you successful. Right. That’s the rule. Which is not true, because there’s, there’s millions of people doing that and, and are not successful in the, in the, um, uh, uh, um, capitalistic kind of way. They’re just doing their thing. I myself like to have these conversations, like with you- Yeah … not because I, I think that we should copy the way they work- Mm.

[01:06:22] Mila Aliana: Mm … but

[01:06:23] Erno Hannink: I’m asking you these questions to see what can I learn and what can I use to experiment with. What can I use to, you know, kind of like-

[01:06:32] Mila Aliana: Yeah …

[01:06:32] Erno Hannink: use this and see if this works for me and how- Yeah … would it work for me. Yeah. And then, um, and hopefully somebody who’s listening to this conversation or a couple of people listening to this conversation do the same thing.

[01:06:43] Erno Hannink: They go like, “Oh, that’s an interesting way of looking at it. Not transactional, but maybe relational.” And if we do that with more people, I think we be- we are getting to a, like a, a better world because- It’s a

[01:06:53] Mila Aliana: domino effect

[01:06:55] Erno Hannink: Yeah, so, so that’s why I love having these conversations, like with you now, is to see what can we pick and choose for ourselves, not by, like copy the whole thing and think, “Oh, this is the way that makes me successful.

[01:07:08] Erno Hannink: This is- Yeah … how I get projects- Yeah, yeah … and really run the show.” No, that’s not how it works. You have to find your own way, how it works for you. Yeah. Um, but my guess is that if you look at, like you just mentioned, like scarcity, and look, like transactional, you’re not gonna have a happy life, right?

[01:07:25] Erno Hannink: You’re gonna have maybe-

[01:07:27] Mila Aliana: It’s going to be more challenging, and you have to do it again and again and again. You don’t… There’s no flow, right?

[01:07:35] Erno Hannink: Yeah, yeah.

[01:07:35] Mila Aliana: So my question to you now, Arno, knowing this, what fits for your context that you can experiment something concrete as of tomorrow? No need for money, no need, just your own resources.

[01:07:49] Mila Aliana: What would that look like?

[01:07:51] Erno Hannink: I think I’m already doing that. But you say, you make it very specific, you say tomorrow, huh?

[01:07:57] Mila Aliana: Mm-hmm, because people wait, like, “Oh, I’d have to wait until my energy is here. I have to wait for money. I have to wait for this.” But what can you do tomorrow that is so free right now?

[01:08:11] Erno Hannink: Yeah, no, no, I, no, I don’t wait for the energy.

[01:08:13] Erno Hannink: I don’t… I- Yeah … I have an appointment with somebody. I had a conversation, a podcast before, and we talked about this idea of green mentors, and she mentioned it and go like, “Oh, that sounds interesting. Well, we can look into that.” So I used Le Chat, which is the French version of ChatGPT- Yeah … and had a conversation with it and talking about, “So what does, like green mentors look like for you?”

[01:08:34] Erno Hannink: And of course- Mm-hmm … Le Chat knows me ‘cause I’ve- Yeah … put a lot of information in there. Yeah. And it goes like, “Oh, this is really related to the work you do there. This is how you can use it there, and this…” I go, “Yeah, that’s really interesting.” So we’re gonna have it, uh, not tomorrow, we’re gonna have the conversation in May- Yeah

[01:08:48] Erno Hannink: in person. Yeah. So again- Yeah … you know, and, uh- uh, bu- building the relationship there. Um- Yeah … then I had this last Monday, um, um, I had Tuesday, last Tuesday, I had a conversation with somebody who wrote, um, Trias Oeconomica. It’s a new book. Yeah. It’s in Dutch, but it’s a really interesting topic of how we can build economics differently because-

[01:09:07] Mila Aliana: Yeah

[01:09:07] Erno Hannink: w- we need to separate the powers, right? Yes. Like Trias, uh, Politica, it’s separating the powers in the, in the, in the financial, economical world.

[01:09:15] Mila Aliana: Yeah.

[01:09:15] Erno Hannink: And the day before she had the book launch, and y- uh, uh, you know, I have the house and everything going on, but I thought, “Okay, it’s gonna be really important for me to be at the book launch.”

[01:09:26] Erno Hannink: I don’t know what’s gonna happen. I have no clue. Nothing happened yet, but I don’t know. But the thing was, it feels really important for me to be there, and it felt like I was building connections with people that I spoke before in the podcast or have meetings online with. Mm-hmm. I have never seen them, so I met them at this event.

[01:09:43] Erno Hannink: So to me that was a really good reason to be at that event, um, to just do that. So again, I’m not- I’m not, um, dividing your question. Tomorrow- Oh … I have a meeting- Yes … with, um, t- uh, six HR people who want- Yes … to learn more about IDG. Of the larger companies in, in the Netherlands. Okay. I’m doing it together with Chantal, you know?

[01:10:09] Mila Aliana: Yes, yes.

[01:10:09] Erno Hannink: From the event. Yeah. And, um, I’m gonna

[01:10:17] Erno Hannink: Yeah, I’m gonna do… I’m just gonna accept and listen more in this, in this meeting

[01:10:24] Mila Aliana: Okay. Listen, and what, what would be a question that you can ask them that will give you some knowledge where they are, what patterns are showing up for them?

[01:10:36] Erno Hannink: Yes. We have, we have a couple of questions, uh, in the beginning of our, of our meeting that we’ve…

[01:10:41] Erno Hannink: So- Yeah … so what I’ve also determined, uh, when I do, like, workshops or events like this- Mm-hmm … I don’t wanna do them on my own anymore. I wanna have- Yeah, yeah … people with me so we can collaborate.

[01:10:51] Mila Aliana: Co-facilitators.

[01:10:52] Erno Hannink: Yeah.

[01:10:52] Mila Aliana: Yeah.

[01:10:53] Erno Hannink: That’s one thing, and the other thing is, um, I don’t wanna have, like, a great- preparation.

[01:10:58] Erno Hannink: I don’t wanna have like- Yeah, yeah … everything worked out how I should- Yeah … teach them about IDGs. No. Yeah, yeah. It’s about experimenting and going on. Yeah. So we have like three questions-

[01:11:06] Mila Aliana: Yeah …

[01:11:07] Erno Hannink: about how they look at the things that are going on in their lives- Yeah … and how s- uh, one of maybe two skills from, from the guide- Mm-hmm

[01:11:18] Erno Hannink: as it’s called today- Mm-hmm … um, could help them in this situation.

[01:11:23] Mila Aliana: Mm-hmm.

[01:11:23] Erno Hannink: Next step would be how this is true for their organization that they’re working with, how they feel- Mm-hmm … this could be in- what skills could be important for them. Maybe just one. And then we move to, because there are six ARs, um, um, uh, professionals of these large companies- Mm-hmm

[01:11:39] Erno Hannink: how in this community of these six HR, how the, how… what domain would they focus on?

[01:11:46] Mila Aliana: Yeah.

[01:11:46] Erno Hannink: One, one of the five domains of this, of the guide. Yeah. So- Yeah … so that’s what we’re gonna do. We’re gonna focus on them to see, okay, what, what- Mm … kind of skill is it that you feel is important to you to work on right now?

[01:11:59] Mila Aliana: So can I suggest, as you asked first for listening, before you go into the skills, give them an experience of before and after.

[01:12:09] Erno Hannink: Mm-hmm.

[01:12:10] Mila Aliana: So before knowing the skills guide, you know, what is it that you’re, you do to address this challenge?

[01:12:19] Erno Hannink: Right.

[01:12:19] Mila Aliana: All right. Let’s say we collaborate this, we do this, A, B, C, D. And then, you know, they go, “Okay, what, what does that look like?”

[01:12:29] Mila Aliana: You know, be very specific. And then now you go, “Okay, now let’s take that same challenge,” and if you went through the inner guide of relating or collaborating, what, you know, what would that look like? B- obviously you would have to give them an experience first. And now you go before and after, so the before without the IDG guide.

[01:12:54] Mila Aliana: Because right now you’re trying to sell the IDG guide, but let it sell itself-

[01:12:59] Erno Hannink: Right …

[01:13:00] Mila Aliana: through the experience of this is before, now I can see what would be the difference, and then I u- embrace the IDG, right? So that’s what I’m talking about being resourceful and not, like, trying to sell the, the, or promote the guide.

[01:13:19] Mila Aliana: Let it sell itself.

[01:13:21] Erno Hannink: Right.

[01:13:21] Mila Aliana: By f- for them to actually s- like the same thing I do at the transition working group. I don’t tell you what to do. You get a lived practice of, oh, that’s what we did before, and this is what it is, and now we understand it. Right? So this is the same thing. You give them an embodied experience of what they do now- Then give them an embodied experience what it would look like if they use an ID.

[01:13:46] Mila Aliana: Then you can take through all the rest because they already can see without you telling them, “Oh, look, this is, this is all the positive.” But if they experience it themself, they don’t need it. You can, you can ask them, “Tell us what you think is the positive now or the negative,” right? So it can also be critique, but then you can address the critique

[01:14:12] Erno Hannink: Thank you. Thank you, Leela

[01:14:14] Mila Aliana: That’s, that’s how I learned from the sales and marketing and saying we never sell.

[01:14:19] Erno Hannink: Yeah. No,

[01:14:20] Mila Aliana: no, I- We never promote.

[01:14:22] Erno Hannink: Yeah, no, it, no, it, it, w- I don’t wanna sell that either. I just, I just want- No, no,

[01:14:26] Mila Aliana: but even promote. They don’t even promote the product.

[01:14:28] Erno Hannink: No, no, I w- Yeah … I wanna just have them experience with it.

[01:14:31] Erno Hannink: That’s what, that’s what my intention is for the meeting- Yeah … for tomorrow, yeah.

[01:14:34] Mila Aliana: And the best is always before and after- Yeah … and they get their own insight.

[01:14:38] Erno Hannink: Yeah Okay, Mila

[01:14:42] Mila Aliana: There you go.

[01:14:42] Erno Hannink: I, I, I think we have something concrete here, and also again- Well, you

[01:14:46] Mila Aliana: said you wanted to learn something, so now

[01:14:49] Erno Hannink: you- Yeah, yeah.

[01:14:49] Erno Hannink: Yeah, yeah. No, I learned not just one thing, I learned many things today, so that’s- Okay. … important for me. Um, a- as a listener, I also hope that you have something that you’ve, that you’ve really think can take away from this conversation. And, you know, I, I really enjoy working with you- Me too … without, you know, without putting it up on a pedestal, right?

[01:15:15] Erno Hannink: I, I really- Oh, I

[01:15:16] Mila Aliana: would hate it Yeah. I would absolutely hate it. Yeah.

[01:15:19] Erno Hannink: Again, I really enjoy working with you, and I really living the experience. So, so seeing what’s going on, feeling what’s going on, trusting the process, trusting what’s coming from this without worrying too much about things that may go wrong or things that might not go the way that…

[01:15:37] Erno Hannink: Well, I d- I didn’t plan anything, but- No … the way that people plan. I, I just, I just trust your experience. I trust the people’s experience. I trust the participants who are there, what they bring and what they- you know, may question or experience or share, and from that something will happen. That’s what I feel.

[01:16:00] Erno Hannink: Yeah.

[01:16:00] Mila Aliana: Yeah. It’s all experimentation.

[01:16:03] Erno Hannink: Yeah.

[01:16:03] Mila Aliana: Right? So it’s adaptive action one after another that will inform the next. So think about how many times we screwed up at the forum. Did it make everybody else never show up? No. They actually loved it that we screwed up, and we told them with transparency. We experimented.

[01:16:20] Mila Aliana: It didn’t work so well, so we’re going to now iterate in real time in your … you know, with you being witness. And it actually creates that, that s- you know, vulnerability creates that trust, right? And the other part about being on a pedestal, what I learned being on a, you know, and, and having to lead so many hundreds of others’ projects that people were looking at me as a leader.

[01:16:44] Mila Aliana: The problem with pedestal that I’ve learned is there’s no way down.

[01:16:49] Erno Hannink: Hmm.

[01:16:51] Mila Aliana: And with someone who has a narrative, “I’m not good enough,” which I’ve had since I was a child, that I had to learn to work with, that makes it even more problematic. Because if I put on pedestal, oh my God, they’re gonna find out how much of an imposter I am, right?

[01:17:09] Mila Aliana: And so it’s harder. So then you become… You perform. You pretend to be somebody you’re not, and eventually it just becomes so difficult to continue. Something will break, right? And I’ve seen it again and again and again. Gurus, thought leaders. We’re human. We’re messy. We’re not… We’re very complicated. We’re not always good.

[01:17:30] Mila Aliana: We’re not always bad. But to put somebody on a pedestal, we’re giving our power away, and they’re also losing their power because they constantly have to perform to perception of who they are, but they’re not that. So that’s why I, I, I prefer not to have website. I prefer that people ask me, “Do you want to write books or podcast?”

[01:17:52] Mila Aliana: And I’m like, “No. It’s too much work.” I’m like, I really like being myself- … and that I don’t have to show any kind of performance to be on a pedestal because I’m just truly, like, I’m procrastinator and I love just being me. And that I don’t have to create more fr- narratives in my already very, very loud I’m not good enough, I’m an imposter.

[01:18:18] Mila Aliana: The amount of times that comes out at every forum, at every time I have to show up in public because it’s just there. It’s, it’s a narrative that’s been going on for many, many people, and we never question why we have to be perfect.

[01:18:33] Erno Hannink: Mm-hmm.

[01:18:34] Mila Aliana: Mm. But none of us are perfect, right? Mm-hmm. It’s that pedestal thing that is thing, and that’s why I prefer to work in collaboration, in participatory process, because it gives the most joy and the most satisfaction- Mm

[01:18:49] Mila Aliana: when we come together, like what we did in Amsterdam. Look, I mean, this is giving me so much joy, and it’s Ivy, it’s you guys, you know, everybody coming together without really no one leading. It’s like everybody is leading but everybody’s following, and it’s happening so naturally, and that’s why I felt Amsterdam was it.

[01:19:10] Mila Aliana: And this is when you ask me how would I know a client. If you were guys my client, I would go with you completely because I can see the energy. It goes and flows. Even if we find challenges or conflict, I’m pretty sure we can overcome it.

[01:19:25] Erno Hannink: Yeah. I, I really enjoy this. Um, s- s- so, so by way of d- of, of what I think is working for me is just asking questions and listening.

[01:19:35] Erno Hannink: That’s what I really love doing, right? Yeah. Having this conversation- Yeah … the podcast, doing this for, as my coaching job. Yes. I really… Role, not job. I really enjoy asking questions and listening, and I also like organizing events, bringing people together, uh, without just being the lead, but just making- Yeah

[01:19:52] Erno Hannink: sure the event happens so that we have- Yeah … okay, we say, “I’m gonna pick a date,” like you just do. Pick a date, and then we’re gonna do the event. I don’t- Yeah … I don’t care how it’s gonna happen. We’re gonna do the event at the date. That’s the only thing that I really am good at, picking a date- Yeah … and making sure that’s gonna happen.

[01:20:05] Erno Hannink: For the rest-

[01:20:06] Mila Aliana: Yeah …

[01:20:06] Erno Hannink: I don’t care who’s on the stage. I don’t care what’s gonna happen. As long as people come together and we have fun- Yeah … and we enjoy and we get something

[01:20:12] Mila Aliana: really- Doesn’t have to be perfect. Yeah. It doesn’t have to be perfect. It can be low profile and we still have fun, right? Yeah. So.

[01:20:17] Erno Hannink: Yeah, yeah.

[01:20:17] Mila Aliana: And now it’s really coming together.

[01:20:20] Erno Hannink: It is. Mila.

[01:20:22] Mila Aliana: Yes.

[01:20:22] Erno Hannink: Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. I really enjoyed this conversation. I did too. And we’ll speak to you another time.

[01:20:29] Mila Aliana: And Erno, thank you for the questions. It was very, very, um, it was, what is it called? Thought-provoking. Ah. Thank you, Erno.

[01:20:39] Mila Aliana: Thank

[01:20:39] Erno Hannink: you.

[01:20:41] Mila Aliana: Goodbye.

By Erno Hannink

Erno is de businesscoach die ondernemers helpt om de lange termijn doelen sneller te realiseren. Ondernemers die het beter willen doen voor de planeet, maatschappij en zichzelf. Met zijn ondersteuning en tips helpt hij je dagelijkse doelen te kiezen zodat je de lange termijn doelen eindelijk gaat realiseren. Test zijn coaching een week lang gratis uit met deze code ERNOHANNINKWEEK op dit platform -> ga naar coach.me. Sluit je aan bij de community van ondernemers die iets bijzonders doen.

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