A connecting perspective on colonization – Rukmini Iyer

Rukmini Iyer A connecting perspective on colonization
Rukmini Iyer decolonization

Today, we are learning from Rukmini Iyer.

Rukmini is a leadership and organisational transformation consultant and peacebuilder with over two decades of global experience. She works at the intersection of conscious leadership, peacebuilding, and systems change, weaving in ecocentric and decolonial perspectives.

She is the founder of Exult! Solutions, a practice dedicated to meaningful, values-driven change, and serves on the International Board of Creators of Peace.

Her facilitation integrates the SDGs and IDGs, the Work That Reconnects, and narrative and somatic practices, supporting communities, organisations, and movements worldwide.

A Rotary Peace Fellow and Vital Voices Fellow, she is committed to helping people and systems make decisions that nurture wellbeing, equity, and planetary balance.

Let’s get started…

In episode 479 of the Decide for Impact podcast, host Erno engages in a thought-provoking conversation with Rukmini Iyer, a leadership and organizational transformation consultant and peace builder. Rukmini, who has over two decades of global experience, works at the nexus of conscious leadership, peace building, and systems change with an ecocentric and decolonial perspective. Rukmini discusses her work at Exult! Solution and the International Board of Creators of Peace, emphasizing the integration of Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) and Inner Development Goals (IDGs).

The conversation delves into the necessity of decolonizing these frameworks and how modern systems often perpetuate inequity and violence. Rukmini shares insights on the historical roots of colonization, contextual differences in global frameworks, and draws comparisons with technological colonization. She also highlights her approach to making her consulting practice inclusive and accessible, and the importance of cultivating non-violent, equitable practices in both personal and corporate spheres.

In this conversation with Rukmini Iyer, I learned:

  • 00:00 Intro
  • 02:20 Explanation of why I want to learn more about colonization and decolonization of the Inner Development Goals.
  • 06:30 Starting with peacebuilding and her experience in this work, she concentrates on dialogue and peace education.
  • 09:30 Gandhi probably drew his inspiration for his non-violent way of living from the Jain philosophy of ahiṃsā.
  • 11:05 Peace-building is a lot about recalling the possibility of non-violence for Rukmini.
  • 11:50 Violence is part of life. It is natural, but is it in the service of life?
  • 16:05 The tendency of humans to take power over others using violence, and at the same time have the free will to choose not to exercise that tendency.
  • 16:30 One of the earliest forms of colonization is agriculture. We decided to settle on a piece of land and to make it grow what I want it to grow.
  • 18:25 All of human history has been about exploring our relationship with power. Power over vs power with.
  • 20:35 Examining land ownership from a different perspective.
  • 22:45 What we call resources, the indigenous people call relatives.
  • 25:05 Rituals that remind us that we are in a relationship with the planet, the cosmos, the plants and animals.
  • 30:15 We need a complement to the SDGs, which speaks to the internal aspects of our psyche. That is why inner development is of great importance to Rukmini.
  • 34:30 Working with frameworks like the Sustainable Development Goals is a luxury.
  • 36:25 To repair our relationship with life through inner development.
  • 37:15 The main points of why there is colonization in the IDG framework and organisation – see links to resources below
  • 44:20 The business model that makes her work accessible.
  • 47:40 We have given a lot of power away to money.
  • 48:50 Start sensing into the patterns of colonization.
  • 51:50 An empowering connotation around colonization.
  • 53:10 Creating localized versions of the IDG framework.
  • 54:10 We allow ourselves to be colonized by technology (companies). We colonize our children.
  • 57:35 The work of Joanna Macy – the work that reconnects.
  • 1:04:05 The sense of guilt about colonization from the past does not serve anyone.
  • 1:06:00 To open up the umbrella, bring in those who do not have shade.

More about Rukmini Iyer:

Resources we mention:

Video of the conversation with Rukmini Iyer

Watch the conversation here https://youtu.be/B-LcKBQ8CGk

Transcript

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome at episode 479 in the Decide for Impact podcast. Today you are listening to the conversation with Rukmini. Rukmini is a leadership and organizational transformation consultant and peace builder with over two decades of global experience. She works at the intersection of conscious leadership, peace building, and systems change, weaving in ecocentric and decolonial perspectives.

She’s the founder of Exult! Solution, a practice dedicated to meaningful values driven change, and she serves on the International Board of Creators of Peace. Her facilitation integrates the SGS and IDGs the work that reconnects and narrative and somatic practices supporting communities, organizations, and movements worldwide.

A Rotary [00:01:00] Peace Fellow and Final Voices fellow. She’s committed to helping people and systems make decisions to nurture wellbeing, equity, and planetary balance. Hi, my name is Erin Ing and I share my knowledge, experience, and expertise with you. I coach entrepreneurs so that they make decisions that will help them grow their impact.

This was a wonderful conversation. I learned a lot about the decolonization colonization in general, and very specific examples that really touched my heart. Actually, some of them heard in my stomach. It was wonderful to learn how she combines her peace work and her decolonization work with the inner development goals and the sustainable development goals.

So I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I do. Let’s get started. [00:02:00] Hello and welcome to this podcast episode Today I’m talking to Rukmini Aish. Welcome Rini. Hi. Thank you for inviting me here. And I wasn’t a hundred percent sure, but I thought we met last year at co, at the IDG For. So we saw again this each other again this year, and I sat at some point next to you saying, were you here last year?

And you said Yes. And so, oh yes, I remember. So we met last year, so that was good. I think the IDG for is a beautiful, , setting plays to have great conversations and to learn and to experience also, , slowness. In the midst of all the workshops that were going on. There’s also plenty of time, I believe, where you have like, can experience slowness, , in this beautiful environment on the mountain.

So it was, it was really great [00:03:00] talking to you there and to learn about, you know, what you do a bit. , but also it was just like a nugget that I, that I learned there, that I saw you there and I thought there’s so much more here that I want to talk to you about. And then you brought up this, , interesting conversation of decolonizing the inner development goals, the IDGs, , which I think is an interesting topic in general, but also specifically to me.

And I will share with you why when you watch the video and you have seen me more often, you know, I’m a white men, I come from the Netherlands, which is. Country with a history that is, has a lot to do with colonization. So there’s a lot of history in our country, in, in our nation, in our, in the Dutch people, uh, about colonization.

I think maybe we are the inventors of [00:04:00] colonization, maybe, possibly, or at least about neoism. We are inventors of the way that the stock exchange is happening now, although it was by two bulbs, but it’s still the same. So there’s a lot of history there. Uh, I’m not saying that I’m carrying all that history.

Uh, that’s not how I look at it right now. , like intergenerational history, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t feel that part, but I still feel that I want. I, I’m, I’m longing for a better world where there’s a lot more, , cooperation, , equity, so equal opportunities, , and I mean all over the planet. I know, I don’t mean just the western country, I mean everybody.

And so it means also that equity close by, like in the Netherlands, there’s like 1 million people living in poverty, but also equity far away. So we buy products that are produced in countries, [00:05:00] , all over the planet where we don’t see what’s going on and how the resources are restricted and what people need to do for that.

So we don’t know between quotes about what’s going on. We do, but we don’t wanna see it. And this topic, this inequality topic is really, drives me, it really, it’s, it’s a flame in me. And at the same time, I feel like. Who am I to talk about this? This white men coming from this colonizing history. So I have a, I have a lot of reservations, uh, to talk about this topic because I think sometimes it’s very difficult to do and I want to talk about, so I’m inviting people like you to share your points of view from your history, what you’ve been learning and what you’ve been doing.

, and you’ve been doing a lot of work on that part. So, so we will come for listeners to give you like an [00:06:00] idea, but we will come to what you’ve been doing the past. I will ask you questions about that, but I, I wanna learn more about this peace. You have been doing a lot of things in the area of peace building.

What, what is that? What does that mean? In, in, in our daily world peace building in. Mean many things and take many shapes and forms. Uh, in my case, it began largely as work related to what’s known as conflict analysis in post civil war contexts, countries like Silent and Cambodia, uh, where we would study why civil wars happened and what led to it in, in a manner that we could gather data so that we can develop early warning systems to prevent such things in the future.

And, uh, that’s where I began, but I did not really last in that form of [00:07:00] peace building for really long because it, at some point it did not make sense to wait for war to happen and figure out why it happened. Uh, so I very consciously moved into the preventive side of peace building. So my work on a day-to-day basis looks a lot like.

Working on dialogues, uh, creating dialogue spaces, uh, both in times of relative peace and also in cases where the conflict is really active. Uh, and the idea is to look at how do we, by being in conversation with each other, learn to remember that I am han, the person I’m fighting with is han. And can that be a common ground to look at what other ways exist for us to meet our needs together in a manner that is [00:08:00] hopefully as less harmful as we can make it for everyone involved?

And I mean, all life forms involved, not just the hans, but. Uh, other forms of life that are impacted by the conflict. So, uh, yeah, a a lot of my work is around dialogue, around peace education, which is largely with younger people looking at, uh, how do they learn to integrate peace building into anything they might go on to do in the world.

So how do you, for example, look at peace building and architecture, peace building and medicine, peace building and carpentry, right? Anything at all? Uh, so, uh, yeah, dialogue and peace education are the major forms that my work tends to take in this building.

I was reading, uh, the book by, oh. The grandson of, of, [00:09:00] of Gandhi, how, I forgot who, what the book’s title is, but I can look it up and put it in show notes. And I think one of the most I impact impactful things I learned in the book from about Gandhi was about non-violent, , communication. So how to operate in a non-violent way.

This sounds like close related to peace building is, am I correct? It certainly is, yes. Uh, I’m from India, as you can guess from my name. Uh, in several of our philosophies, including the one that Gandhi was influenced by when he spoke about non-violence. He was very influenced by, uh, his mother’s gen, uh, traditions.

And Jism speaks a lot about non-violence as well as several other eastern religions do. The, the Sanskrit word we use for [00:10:00] non-violence around here is ahsa, which well literally might translate into non-violence, but it’s a little difficult to explain what it loses in, in that translation in the sense it’s not just about, it’s not just about lack of violence, but about consciousness of how I might potentially be violent in, in any act of life, and can I learn to consciously step away from that in everything that I say and do and be, which could include being mindful of my language as I speak mindful of my thoughts.

And it does not even have to be about thoughts that are directed to the world or to others. It could also be about how violent I can potentially get. When I think about myself and I judge myself, right? And of course there’s the outer [00:11:00] representation of violence, which is more about armed conflict and and so on.

But, uh, yeah, peace building to me is a lot about recalling the possibility of non-violence, recalling the possibility of a hints, ahsa as we call it. And, uh, looking at, uh, setting up systems and structures, which, which can nurture that possibility. And sadly, a lot of the way our world is structured right now does not quite nurture the idea of non-violence.

You, you have been interested in the topic for some time now. What do you feel is, are the main reasons that this violence is going on? Violence is. You know, I, it’s part of life. Hmm. I in the sense that, uh, for example, for, uh, a plant to [00:12:00] exist, a seed has to sprout and it has to stop existing as a seed for the sapling to grow.

Right? And one perspective of looking at that is, is there is violence in the fact that the seed sprouts and something else takes its place. So in that, uh, violence is natural. However, the question for me is about, is that violence in service of life, for example, if, if, if, if a lion kills a deer in the jungles, is that violence?

Yes, there is violence, but it’s in service of the life of the lion. And the lion does not randomly go on a rampage killing, uh, unless it’s hungry. Right. Uh, so yeah, some degree of violence, which enables life to survive [00:13:00] is, is very natural. It becomes violence in a way that is not just, and, and it loses that sense of justice when we activate or trigger violence without really a need for it, without exploring if there are other op options and other ways of getting our needs fulfilled.

And, and that’s where I think we’ve lost a lot as a world, that we’ve enabled a lot of violence without making ourselves responsible and holding ourselves accountable for finding ways which don’t necessarily have to be. In terms of taking away from the less powerful in order to feed, the more powerful whatever power means in that specific context.

Yeah, that’s an interesting point. Taking away from the less powerful, powerful for, to get more for the [00:14:00] powerful. I was reading this book, which is a Dutch book about regeneration, and she explains in a book about how violence looks often, like there’s like a faith behind a, a collision between the face, right?

, if you look to Ireland and the UK for example, or if you, you know, there’s a lot of wars that went on supposedly because of faith. , but if you look deeper. She says, you can see it has a lot to do with different things, and it has a lot to do with power to gain power over other land or nations or people.

Often it has to do with, , resources that are in the ground at some place that they want to capture. For example, as you can see now in Israel, for example, how. Trp wants to, you know, build like a new [00:15:00] whatever, hotels and something, but also the oil and the gas that are the place that they’re looking for.

So it sounds maybe like a war that is about Judaism and, you know, all kinds of faith issues, but it really isn’t, and I think it’s very similar to Ukraine and Russia, that Russia invading Ukraine. Putin talks about history and in the past it belonged to Russia. But it’s, it looks like, to me it really is about the resources that are there that it wants to capture, , for free.

Right? Just, well, not really for free, but to take off for the country. Yeah. I can understand how, how this power is a thing. It looks like it’s part of han nature. If you look to the past, if you look at everything that’s going on in history, how do you feel about that? Do you, do you really feel it’s part of han nature?

To be violent, [00:16:00] you mean? Yes, yes. To, to try to take control over others.

It’s certainly seems to be a tendency we have. And, , what I’m fascinated by is, is the fact that we also seem to simultaneously have the free will to choose not to exercise that tendency. I mean, if, if we look at the, the, this idea of power over someone or something else, , perhaps one of the earliest forms of colonization I can think of as agriculture.

The, the fact that at some point we decided to settle on a piece of land and said, I don’t want this land to grow what it’s naturally growing. I want to uproot all of that and, uh, make it grow what I want it to grow. [00:17:00] And that sense of power over a piece of land. Then of course, expanded over, uh, millennia and centuries into, into territorial colonization.

And now of course it continues in other forms, but I, I suppose it at some point, the impulse to do that perhaps emanated from our very early history where we maybe found ourselves powerless against forces of nature. Right? The, the fact that you were at, uh, you know, uh, perhaps the early people that inhabited the planet, work at the mercy of.

The sun and the winds and the earthquakes and what have you. And there was really no way to negotiate with that. And early religions evolved from there right to, as a way to appease the, the, the sun or the wind by offering it [00:18:00] something and saying, Hey, here’s a bribe. Do this for me. Keep me safe or alive.

And uh, so yeah, I think if those were early peace offerings, which at some point evolved into religions and uh, and the more we started developing technology and tools, we realized we can actually have some power over nature. We can make it grow what we want to, to be grown. And so I think all of han history in that sense has been about exploring our relationship with power.

It’s just that we’ve somehow managed to interpret it as having to be a relationship of power over something and someone, and not really power with something or, or someone. It’s interesting and, and I’m really grateful that several indigenous communities around the world still [00:19:00] seem to have continued that exploration of living in power with the ecology that they live in.

But, the rest of us seem to have sadly forgotten that. Yeah. I, I really like your look at this, the start of colonization with agriculture, that the power over land and power over nature and everybody, everything that was on the land, right. Plants and animals. It is, it is a, a very deep historical. , issue by saying, by claiming that this is my land, which of course when, when I’m, I always have this weird feeling, right?

So I’m buying land from, uh, our city to build a house there, and I go like, so why is the city able to sell this land? This is not, it’s not, it’s not owned by the city, it’s owned [00:20:00] by the Earth. It’s, it’s, it’s, nobody owns the ground or the land or whatever. So that always is always like a conflict in me. I understand that the system works like this and, but still it is a kind of weird thing and it has a lot to do with all the violence that’s going on, right?

The ownership of land, the, the, the part where we say, okay, I put my stake here. This is my belonging and I do on this piece of land what I want. Which is really, really weird. And, and also I was, I was reading this Dutch guy who’s a very analytic person, he talks about, so let’s say for example, that we divide all the land on the planet right now evenly over the 8 billion people that are on the planet right now.

[00:21:00] So we make it a very, , fair and, you know, equal opportunities we get by giving everybody land an equal piece of land. So if, if that is, for example, the starting point to see how this can go wrong is what happens when the next person, the new, next new person is born. Mm-hmm. All the land is gone. So what is this new person getting?

How is this gonna survive on this planet? Whether he’s not having land or she and I go, yeah, that’s an interesting way of looking at it. If we, if we talk about owning land, ownership of land, that is like a fundamental part of the problem of violence. Of, of violence against each other, but also violence against, you know, nature.

And one of the solution was talking about was [00:22:00] nobody would be owning any land anymore. So the land is not yours, you’re just like the indigenous people were doing. , you are at the land, , and you are there and you are supporting the land. You’re supporting nature on the land. You’re not taking more than you need.

But also you’re not taking more than the land can handle. Right? So, so you’re just, like you said, in a power in relationship with the land. Right. I found that a really interesting thinking. I have no idea how we can make this, , possible livable, but I thought this is, this is, this is interesting. If we would just all give back the land, how that would rearrange economics and inequality and the ownership of resources.

Well, there is no [00:23:00] ownership because we don’t own the land. So stuff like that. So all this rethinking, gosh.

Perhaps the stuckness we feel is also because we named them resources. I don’t remember the name of the chief. It was perhaps chief s of one of the first Nations in, in the US on Total Island. , he, he spoke about, uh, uh, it is a longer speech, but I remember being very struck by this one particular sentence where he says, what you call resources, we call relatives, and to, to me, that that’s our work in this context.

That, that we really need to reframe the relationship and stop thinking about the, [00:24:00] the, the planet or waters or forests, other life forms. They’re not resources in service of us. They are our kins in different shapes and forms and we need to learn how to live with them. And that, that’s about it. And learning how to live that way is, I think something that we perhaps need generations to figure.

Mm-hmm. How to do. Given how far we’ve come from that sort of a relationship,

how does that make you feel? That we are so far away from that

course? It brings up a lot of grief, , which. To, to some extent I [00:25:00] also feel in a very personal sense, but, but it is also grief, which is very collective. , that there, there is a different way of being that is accessible and the fact that we are still making a choice not to access that. So, yeah, certainly not a pleasant feeling.

Do you feel that, , the people in India are thinking different about this? Are they more in relationship to nature or less? I’m not really familiar with India, so I’m just asking to understand what you see because you’ve, you’ve, you live in India, but you’ve also been in other countries. So you have like also a broader perspective in my opinion.

I think [00:26:00] what I’m grateful for is the fact that the, that the eastern part of the world in general and our, uh, philosophies, which now are interpreted as religions, uh, are deeply ecological in nature. So a a lot of our scriptures, a lot of our rituals are about this relationship. And how do you demonstrate that relationship through a ritual?

Like, I mean, we have, I, I’ve seen my father, you know, do his morning prayers to the sun and, uh, every new moon, there’s a prayer to the moon. And, you know, all, all of those rituals which are really about, uh, reminding ourselves of the fact that you are in relationship. With the planet, with, with the cosmos around, with, with plants and animals.

And can you keep reminding yourself of that [00:27:00] relationship even as you go about whatever it is that you do in the world? And I’m, and I’m grateful that, uh, yeah, our philosophies have that and these are living philosophies and, and they’re still very accessible. So I’m grateful for that. To your question about, is India different?

, no, I wouldn’t generalize that because we are a former British colony. I grew up with an education system that was very British. Uh, we were taught to aspire Western ideals and we’ve moved far, far away from, uh, yeah. Where, uh. We might have been had we not been colonized in a territorial sense of the term.

So yeah. Is India very different from the rest of the world right now? Mainstream India, certainly not [00:28:00] very similar to the rest of the world. Do you see streams, , that go back to these historical philosophies? , are they growing? Are you, are they gaining, uh, followers? People that feel that way, that think, okay, we need to not go back because I don’t think that’s the right words that we should be using.

Go forward and learn and use what we’ve had in our past to build a different future. So there is a lot of active work around, uh, what’s now being called IKS, Indian Knowledge Systems. That’s being brought back in a big way in university systems and in even corporate organizations talking about it, and a lot of conversation around that, even in the realm of public policy and [00:29:00] governance and so on.

So yes, it is, there is a resurgence of that. And at the same time, there’s also a lot of co-option of that by nationalist and right-wing political factions. So it is, uh, as politicized and weaponized as, uh, anything else in the world is. Yes, that does sound familiar. Which is so sad that somehow the populists or the Ultra right are claiming, you know, our, our past saying, okay, we need to go back to them because that was the better part, which is kind of quite weird still.

, [00:30:00] okay, so I’m not done here with this peace building part and, but, , we, you talked about the colonization of India and you are very involved with the inner development goals and the initiatives of change. , what made you stand up? Uh, after co saying we need to decolonize the inner development goals, what maybe stand up was a very visceral, I think, uh, experience of feeling that, that the CO IDG for this year in 2025 felt designed by the global North for the global North.

And at some point I really started wondering why, what am I even doing [00:31:00] there? Am I welcome in this conversation or do I need to be at the periphery? And, you know, like, uh, a lot of, uh, these conversations tend to be, , so yeah, it, it was really a very somatic reaction around saying that there’s something about it, which does not sit right.

The body, and of course in the mind. And, uh, in terms of feelings, I think what, uh, perhaps disturbs me the most is the fact that here’s a framework that that has a lot of value. And I, and, and I have been able, since the IDGs were released, I, I’ve been working to look at integrating them with STDs because it, it makes sense.

I mean, we need a compliment to the SDDs, which speaks to the internal aspects of our psyche. Uh, however, if you’re looking at developing a framework largely in a certain part of the [00:32:00] world, and, and then attempting to export it and to universalize it to, to say this, these are goals for the whole world.

Have you, have you really spoken to the whole world about this before you put it into a framework? And of course there’s always this argent, and I’ve seen that, uh, in public fors and social media o over the last couple of years, every time people have questioned about the research of the IDGs. And there’s always, uh, a defense coming up around saying that.

Of course, we’ve had research teams in so many countries and all of that, but when you’re speaking about working with research in a certain manner that is led by academics, it’s also important to question, you know, who are academics in country in different parts of the world. For example, in India, if we were to go back to that list, list of [00:33:00] researchers and, and the people that they accessed, uh, while developing the IDGs, I’m sure there were, most of them were upper cast and upper class.

Because those are people who, who might be able to think in the language of frameworks and have, you know, make sense of a concept, uh, like this. So then what happens to worldviews that are not pres presented enough or represented enough in, in the academia? What about indigenous worldviews? What about in the Indian context?

What about Dali worldviews? You know, uh, people who are, so-called lower caste, I hate to use that term, but that they are, oppressed. They have been oppressed over centuries. And, how do you incorporate those worldviews and how do you call a framework global without naming them? So yeah, that’s what made me stand [00:34:00] up that day.

Mm-hmm. And I. You, you make the clear connection with the id, the SDGs, the Sustainable Development Goals. Why are you using and working with the sustainable Development goals? What does it attract you there? So, a lot of my work in peace building and also in the corporate sense when I work on diversity, equity, and inclusion, it, it has a lot to do with the SDGs, particularly, SDGs related to peace and justice and gender.

The, those are two, SDDs that I work actively with. And in that work, I feel it’s, it, it’s really essential that while the SDD speak to the systemic and the policy aspect of, uh, the work and, and the structural things that we need to do in the world that work will. [00:35:00] Not be enabled. And even if it’s enabled, it’ll not sustain unless we also have a conscious shift in our collective psyche.

And, and that’s where for me, you know, development matters a lot. We, we need to look at doing both sides of, uh, the work. Otherwise it’s like, you know, trying to fly a bird with one wing and, and not, uh, flapping the other, it it’ll go around in circles. Do, do you see that, , the ESGs are incorporated in society, uh, in smaller companies, in well areas where I think it’s not very clear that SDGs isn’t, is an important thing when I look at here in the Netherlands, but do you see that is how does it, is that in, in India, in the places that you work, do you see that it’s STGs are an important, , framework that they use?[00:36:00]

In some cases not everywhere. Again, it’s important to recognize that, uh, these kind of global frameworks are accessible only by a certain population, and also the fact that one has the luxury of thinking about and working with these kind of global frameworks only when sustenance and survival is taken care of and for most populations in the world, that that is what they’re grappling with.

So what we are speaking about is, is luxury. It’s luxury, is it also power over? We’ve created systems where it’s become about power over. Yeah. So in, in your opinion. It [00:37:00] is important when I read your piece, that the inner development goals stay clearly connected to the sustainable development goals. My understanding when the IDGs were first published was that that was the, in, that was one of the intent that they would work as a compliment to the sds.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and do you feel that, in your personal opinion, that the igs could also be a separate thing when, for example, the expectation of the SDGs are not going as we hope? , like, you know, we see now that the US is, saying, I don’t want to work with anymore. When you’ve worked with DEII am gonna, you know, shut you down.

Uh, all this stuff is going on. So there’s like a, a, a, a feeling that I have. There’s a tendency to. Go away from the [00:38:00] SDGs in a public environment, in corporate worlds. , do you feel that the IDGs can survive without that? That we have also an opportunity to connect it to something else? Think framework or not?

I mean, you know, development is something that we need to, as a species engage with anyway, given the, the stage of hanity that we are in right now. So, yeah, I mean, I would make a case for engaging with it regardless of anything else simply to repair our relationship with life, if not anything else.

Okay. So what are your. You mentioned a little bit, but you’ve, you’ve written down a large piece, and I would put the link to that in the show notes on Medi. What is [00:39:00] your, what are your biggest points of why you feel there’s colonization in the IDG environment and framework? I think firstly, in terms of access, of course the framework is open access, and I’m, and I’m glad it is that way, at least people can access and interpret and work with it, uh, in their own way and contextualize it.

However, if you look at being in community in a very real way, in a physical way, most IDG summits and conferences are not accessible. That they’re, they’re too pricey for. I imagine most of the world. So yeah, I mean, so there is a sense of a certain economic structure built around it, which, which seems to replicate a lot of inequities that are already [00:40:00] present in the world.

Right. And of course, I’m sure in, in terms of the, the, the research of it, that there are epistemic hierarchies that need to be looked at and they don’t seem to be very transparent around it. And also it, from my perspective, there is a subtle, perhaps not subtle, maybe an overt cultural dominance in terms of even presenting it as a framework that needs to be deployed and, propagated a lot of the world.

At least my part of the world does not, is not tuned to think. Of things as frameworks and, you know, not, uh, not thing, not conceptualize life that way. We, we are more attuned to mapping relationships and looking at how do we navigate relationships and [00:41:00] so on. So the idea of framework, everything is a very western academic notion, which, uh, which somehow we seem to take for granted and also tend to call it global.

But that, that’s certainly something, uh, I find has vestiges of colonialism in it. That’s, yeah, I didn’t, I didn’t see that part. I like it, uh, to, to, to get that from you to, to thank you for that to, to give me that picture. , I,really, clicked with the part where you talk about the access, due to high cost.

, even last year in, at the event in 2024 in co there were conversations about, , the issues that the foundation was having for, you know, money to [00:42:00] have enough money to sustain. And that has even just gotten more this year. And so the, the organization is looking for ways to find like money, , to continue the organization, to do the research, to do all the things they, they need to do, , well, they feel they need to do, , which is, so, so I, at co I was having a lot of conversations with a friend of mine also from the Netherlands.

, he studied Buddhism. , I’m not sure if he really calls himself a Buddhist, but he, he, he does a lot of work in that area. And how, how he spoke about, , what he’s used to with, with the Buddhist environment is with the philosophy is that, , we are all not knowing, right? So we, we want to enlighten, to enlighten, you know, [00:43:00] everybody, everything on the planet, which is like the ultimate goal.

And I’m not sure if it’s even possible, but it’s gonna take generations to get there. So, so, so, which is an interesting view, like thinking about the next seven generations. So you’re doing things now that you will not see, , to, to happen because you just believe in, in, in this whole concept or philosophy and.

What he was talking about was, , he’s part of this learning group where you pay a monthly amount to, to be part of it, but you as the individual determine how much you pay. Right? So it’s, it’s up to you, but you do a monthly payment. And when you do a training, , again, it’s, it’s you to determine how much you pay for the training, except when you, for example, have like, uh, you know, you stay at a place and you have, , a [00:44:00] place to, you know, to live for a while, then you pay for, for living there, which I feel really connected to that idea.

. I in general, not just for the IG environment, but just in general, how could we create like businesses and companies to work like this where we have environments where people themselves determine how much you pay. I know it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s not easy. I know that. But the whole idea that you make it accessible for so many more people by doing this, by opening it up.

And the second thing by being transparent about this, right? So how do you use the money that you have? How do you use everything that you do in your organization? So to be very transparent and open about, you know, what’s going on and, and you know, like you said, so be open up how you, how research, how, what people did you invite or ask.

, so be very [00:45:00] transparent so everybody can see this. So to me that was, that really, , clicked. So I see the issues and the struggles that they are having, but it’s also coming from a way. From thinking in a way that this is the way that we need to work, that we need to have an operation. , you need this amount of money to get, you know, you have this amount of people to be there instead of just saying, oh, we have this philosophy and we want to, you know, gift it the way and if you want to use it, you know, just pay us whatever you can.

, and if you don’t use it, that’s fine too. , just, you know, and just stop paying. Right? , I think that would just be a wonderful change if we could just do that. , because it also gives every person that is using the IDGs at the moment in their work, like in, as a coach or a trainer or in [00:46:00] the business, an opportunity to pay to say, oh, I’m really grateful that this is what I’m using today, and then I’m, I’m using it in my work.

There is an easy way to organize this Right now. It’s not possible to do. You can, you can, you know, gifts, you can send like an a, a gift in, but that’s, that’s not really working. I don’t think we should live from philanthropy. Thank you. So, so yeah, I think it’s, I think I really like that part, but also you gave me a different view on the other parts as well of how, as, from a western point of view, we don’t see how colonized actually this whole idea is of, for example, like you’d mentioned the whole idea of a framework.

That’s not, that’s not common thinking all over the world. It’s not. It’s just something that we feel very comfortable and I mean we, from the western part, we feel very comfortable with. So, yeah. Interesting. To extend what you [00:47:00] said about the IDGs and access, I mean, I, I think we, we need to also. I do that way beyond the IDGs.

In fact, when I set up my consulting practice back in 2008, you know, as I was, uh, employed for the first seven or eight years of my career, and, and at some point I, you know, it was my last employment was with a business school in Singapore. And I remember waking up one fine day saying, what I want to do is not gonna happen in employment and I need to figure out another way to do this.

And I, at that point, I primarily wanted to integrate my work in leadership and organization development, which was corporate focused and peace building, which was more sociopolitical in nature. And, uh, that was obviously not going to happen in a job. And, and at the same time, I also realized that a lot of peace building work, uh.

In the frame or the way in which we know it is very grants and [00:48:00] fund dependent. And, uh, so a lot of it gets stuck if funds don’t flow in. And I remember distinctly telling myself, I don’t want to give myself an excuse of not being able to do the work because there are no funds. So when I set up my consulting practice, it was with a specific intent, uh, and a and a business model, uh, that I, I will do corporate work from which there can be flow of funds and I will redirect them into work where no funding is available.

So, uh, and that, that’s how I’ve been. Since 2008. So a lot of the, the public programs that I offer are offered pro bono or they’re offered a, you know, on, on a gift economy basis. Like, you know, pay what you can if you can, uh, or sometimes on a sliding scale basis in a way that work that [00:49:00] needs to be done in the world gets done while I manage to pay my bills.

Mm-hmm. So, yeah, over the years, a lot of my offerings around things that really matter to me work around decolonization or around tism in India, around inter-religious dialogue. A a lot of that is offered with that spirit of saying, come and access it and spread it. And it, it does not matter if you cannot pay.

Through financial capital. I’m sure there’s other forms of capital that people bring in that can be appreciated as well. Yeah, I think, I think that’s a great point. ‘cause I think if, if you have like these initiatives that, that are, you know, uh, based on or rely on funds is when they have the fund, you know, they’re really happy, they’re moving forward, but at some point, like the government or [00:50:00] wherever the fund provider decides not to support this goal anymore, then all of a sudden they’re like in panic and stuck.

Because they don’t have any flow of income anymore. Or maybe they have like two other funds coming in, but still it’s, there’s like a big cut in their budget and they have to, you know, reorganize and do things differently. So, so the whole, I feel if you, if you are founding a organization on funding. It is very difficult, , to make it, because then the chances are you’re likely to stay in service of the institution itself and not what it set out to do.

Yeah. And, and that’s also one of the power relationships that we as hanity need to repair. Right. That we’ve given a lot of power away to money. And we really need to reclaim that and look at what other modes of exchange [00:51:00] can we learn to honor and nurture. Yeah. Yeah. Which is, which is not easy ‘cause the whole system is, is all arranged around money.

So it’s not easy to do that. You, if you do that, you have to have a lot of, you know, Willpower, but also a lot of, you, want to continue. Even if you, if it seems impossible, you still, you, you still want to continue. That’s it. It, it costs a lot of energy. , so you, you, you organize now three conversations around decolonizing the inner development goals.

You had the first one, last week. Yes. , I couldn’t attend, I’ve registered for the other two. What happened at the first one? What was, what did you see? What happened? So the [00:52:00] theme for the first conversation was, uh, to start sensing into patterns of colonization that exist, within the IDG framework.

But, but, but also within ourselves, you know, how do we as a world sustain a framework like that if the framework is colonized and so are we. So the, yeah, that call was, uh, really about starting to sense into how, how colonization exists in our day-to-day choices and our ways of being in our language, in who we are friends with, what we read.

Right. All, all of that. And, uh, so yeah, it was a, a lot, uh, around building awareness and, , stirring up a lot of discomfort and learning to stay in that discomfort so that, that’s what happened in the first call. And who were, was there a lot of [00:53:00] variety of the people, uh, in cultures, uh, that were present? Oh, yes.

It was a very wide variety. We had some 85 odd re registrants eventually, and yeah, it was. We had, yeah. From Australia to us. So yeah, we more or less covered the whole range from yeah, east to west, north to south, which was very fascinating because, uh, uh, yeah, e everyone seemed to have a felt sense of what colonization as a tendency within us has done to us and done to the planet.

, and at the same time, for me, it was also interesting to notice how white bodied people received the conversation very differently from people of color. So that was very interesting to notice. Yeah, I can imagine. And the, because I was at the [00:54:00] workshop about inclusion at co. , and, and one of the remarks was what stood out for her was that she said, it’s about the people who are not here.

Telling a story. And I go like, yeah, that’s interesting. So there’s a, there was a lot of various cultures in that room, or not a lot, but you know, a nber of various cultures in that room. , but there were a lot more missing. Oh yes, it was, it, it was not a lot of white people there, let’s put it that way.

And that’s, I think, exactly who you wanna involve in the conversation. Who, who, who need to be involved in the conversation, , to, to understand more, , what other people sense and experience, but also what you, [00:55:00] yourself, like you’ve described in the piece about that first session. . What you sense, what is, what’s going on in, in, in your feelings world around colonization.

Do you feel that decolonization is a negative word?

Not really. Okay. Personally, I, I have a very empowering connotation around it, but I, I can also understand why it can be perceived as negative in the sense that a lot of, , the mainstream narrative around it has been about anger and blame and guilt, and that that’s not exactly, not a shame. Right? Right.

Yeah. ‘cause the woman in the book about regeneration, she talked about, , what was it?[00:56:00]

I think it was more about going back to indigenous forms. , I don’t remember what the words she was using, but she was, she was talking about the book who, who, and the author spoke about that decolonization is just confirming the colonization, which we want to get away from. So I thought that was an interesting point.

, but I’m also not sure if it, if you talk, if you use different words, that it becomes more clear for everybody what we are talking about. And, and I think that you, I’m not sure, but I, that’s how I translate. I think that you, you are also looking for, localized, , ways of, of the IDG framework so that there’s more localized languages or versions of the A IDG framework Do.

Did I understand that correctly? [00:57:00] That would be one part of the work. Yeah. I mean, not only in terms of languages, but also contextualizing Hmm, the framework as it is called right now. But yeah, it, to latch onto what you said before that I think it’s also important to recognize that.

Yeah. Why, why when we say decolonization, yeah. It can sound like you’re probably, confirming or reconfirming colonization. There is no denial of it. It happened. Right. And at the same time, it’s also important to recognize that colonization was never only about territorial and political colonization as a tendency existed, and all of us as hans all the time.

And it continues to exist even now. [00:58:00] Where we allow ourselves to be colonized by technology, where we, we colonize our children in terms of telling them what values to adopt and how to live and all of that. So it, none of us is exempt. It’s not about white people versus the rest of the world. There is work for all of us to do.

And so, yes, I understand where that sense of guilt and blame comes from in a lot of the, the narrative around decolonization. But I also believe it is important to step away from that and recognize that this is work for each one of us to do. It’s not about blaming anyone. Yes, historical injustices happened and colonization continues to exist in multiple forms, even as we speak.

And, uh, everyone needs to work at that. I [00:59:00] really sparked, , the, that we are being colonized by technology. Can you say something more about how do you see that?

What is colonization? To go back to the basics, it, it is a sense of extraction without consent, right? I mean, if you look back at what, what did the British do to India, for example, that they extracted resources out of here and made themselves rich in the process, right? So it it, it’s that idea of attempting to extract from what does not, what is not yours.

And for the most part, doing it without consent. Look at how technology works today. You and I and this podcast is data on the internet and the, that data is monetized by, you know, the, [01:00:00] uh, powers that we in the technology world. And, uh, for the most part, if you are, you know, in most kinds of technology products that we use, whether it’s social media or anything else, if you’re not paying for the product, you are the product you are being extracted from even a lot of times, even if you’re paying for the product you’re being extracted from.

Right. And so, yeah, we are very colonized by technology.

Yeah. Or you could say maybe by, by technology companies. Because in the end of course, it’s about the power that the, the technology company has over us instead of just because it, so Yeah. It’s not the abstract entity of technology. Because that’s not something you could fight. but the fact that we as hans actively fund these companies, [01:01:00] invest in them, allow them to proliferate.

Right. So who says we are not colonizers? Yeah, good point. , there’s so much more I, I wanna talk to you about, , but also I wanna be respect of your time and I wanna possibly open up also a, an opportunity for a next conversation as well. , but I, there’s one more thing that I wanna, get some more, you know, of your insights on the work that reconnects the work that you do, , with the work of, Joanne Macy.

How does this connect with everything that you do? , I think it connects with everything that I am and I do in the sense that, uh, I think Joanna was such a gift to the world. [01:02:00] She, uh, she, she sensed into what our work needs to be at this generation living right now on this planet, in the state that it is in, and in the state that we are in.

So, yeah, for me, the work that reconnects is about, literally what it says, learning to reconnect with ourselves, with life learning to, well relearn how to build relationships within and outside because it is in reframing relationships that we change systems. And, uh, a lot of what is forgotten about how to relate to the forest or the river or to the leaf is, is what we really need to, uh, remember in a manner that, that then shifts systems [01:03:00] around us.

Because at the moment we seem to have constructed and we sustain systems and institutions that reinforce the forgetting. And, and so for me, the work that reconnects is a very radical and a subtle and a powerful way of systems change in a manner that starts at a very accessible place, which is our own selves.

And, and how do you do that in corporations when you work with leadership programs? I’ve had very interesting experiences of, uh, yeah, bringing in elements from the work that reconnect to the practices from it. I work a lot with, business leaders around, [01:04:00] sometimes around their leadership, sometimes around strategy.

And, uh, I find younger leaders, like some millennials and the generation after that, uh, very naturally resonating with the work that reconnects because, uh, I think they, they see the impact of what’s happening in the world on their lives. They’re very concerned about what their children are growing up into.

Uh, and that then also means that there is a sense of. Willingness sometimes with a lot of mental clashes about what they’ve been educated into and what they really feel into. But there, there is a sense of willingness around saying, okay, this way of looking at the world and therefore this way of doing business is something that is worthy of exploration.

And I’ve also seen a lot of older leaders struggle with the idea because they’ve been, uh, again,

[01:05:00] educated into the idea that businesses are profit churning machines and, and that they need to be loyal to that idea of what business means. And so even as they acknowledge what’s happening in the world, there is a sense of loyalty to older ideas that, uh, they’ve lived with all their lives.

And, uh, yeah, that, that loyalty can makes it very difficult for them to move away from their stance. So. It’s interesting to see both sides of, uh, the coin there. Mm-hmm.

Just two things that now go through my head. , one is with your last remark is that, oh, maybe I should focus on younger entrepreneurs in my work. I think that would be a great opportunity for me to investigate or discover, , what you were saying, [01:06:00] how they are more open to this and because this is the work I want to do.

, and the second thing I want to come back to was when you talk about colonization. I wanna share this feeling with you that I had is, , you talked about we are colonized by technology, but then, then you said we are colonizing our children. It really, it really, it stung me. It really, it really, I felt it.

I felt it. And I was, I was, I was thinking about that. Am I doing that? Am I really colonizing my children, putting my ideas in them? I hope I’m not, I hope I’m not doing that too much, but obviously I am. ‘cause I’ve, I’ve, I’ve, , raised them with my wife and, , but I, I hope I give them right now enough freedom [01:07:00] to discover their own way and at the same time, ‘cause I, I feel that they are.

My, my children both are a lot in, in, in the traditional thinking, in, in, in the profit, kind of thinking in the traditional economic way of things. I’m, I’m hoping I’m giving them like sparks of how we can also look at this in a different way. Not that I want to colonize them, , but, you know, maybe give them some inspiration of we can live differently.

We, it is possible to create a different future. , I, I, I like the idea that a, that we have the possibility of han, well, not just hans, is, uh, of living species. That we can create a different future where there’s, there’s multiple possible futures out there that we can create [01:08:00] together. So, yeah. I just wanted to share that, that it really, I really felt it when you said that.

I go, my gosh, that hurts. That’s, that’s that realizing that I’m colonizing my children. That’s a, that’s an, that’s an interesting way of looking at colonization. , it also opens it up, of course, that you’re not just, just have to look as colonization, colonization of the whites from the western part of the world, colonizing the rest of the world.

, that’s not the only way to look at it. So, uh, hopefully that opens up, uh, uh, you know, ideas and, and, and feelings and ways of looking at it. That goes further than, you know, I feel as a han, as a white han, I feel like guilt and I don’t know what to do. So I’m just stuck in this frame that I’m sitting in right now.

I can’t change anything because I think that’s, a lot of [01:09:00] people feel that right now I cannot change the situation, so I’m just continue the way it is right now.

Is there anything you want to add

just on the point of guilt? , around privilege, , and maybe I should Yeah. Start with my own, uh, reflection and practice around that. So, uh, I was born into what is termed as an upper caste family here in India. And, uh, that means that my last name that you see a year, uh. Comes, uh, gives me a lot of privilege that I can be really blind to that doors are all opened when it may be shut for some others, or, uh, yeah, opportunities are accessible where it [01:10:00] might be difficult for others.

, and yeah, when I started doing, uh, this work early on, there was of course a lot of, uh, guilt and shame around the, the kind of oppressors that my ancestors were, uh, and, and continue to be in, in some ways. , and at the same time that that sense of guilt, uh, is not serving anyone. It does not serve me. It does not serve the work I’m attempting to do.

Uh. And it also, I, I inducing that sense of guilt and shame is also a very, , subversive way that the system sustains itself. And it, it does become important at some point to recognize that privilege and to ask [01:11:00] myself, how do I offer this in service of those who do not have it? How do I extend the safety net that I have to talk about things that others cannot safely talk about?

And, uh, yeah, to, for me, I think that, that, that’s also the work that a lot of white bodied people in the world need to do right now to, to, to extend your privilege, you know, to open up that brella and bring in those that do not have shade.

Beautiful. That is beautiful. To open up the brella to bring in others in the shade. Oh,

thank you very much. It was a wonderful conversation, , where I think I’ve, I [01:12:00] didn’t talk about so many things that I, that I wanted to learn more about, but you know, we only have, what is it, hour, 15 minutes or something that we, that we spoke. , hopefully we get another opportunity in the future to talk more about this.

I think it’s a very important topic. , and as we already concluded, you know, looking at where we are now. It’s probably gonna take generations until we will be at a place which looks very different from where we are. But if we don’t start building that, if we don’t start working at the foundation of that, of that different future, then like you just said, if, if, if we feel that it’s the system and we just say, okay, I can’t do anything ‘cause it’s a system, then we believe that we don’t influence the system, which is not true.

We are the system, we are part of the system. So if we wanna change it, we have to change it ourselves and we have to do it without seeing the end results because it’s gonna take like a long time before we get a [01:13:00] different view on that one. So, I really love what you do, the way that you set it up with your own business, working in the corporate world, and then giving away time or, resources on people who don’t have that.

Access, how you incorporated the work of Joanna Macy, the peace building work, , using the SDGs and IDGs in combination. So for you to, you know, are part of building a new system or changing the current system in a way that we the planet, not the planet, but everybody that, everything that lives on the planet needs, right?

, so thank you for that. Thank you ing the conversation for me as well.[01:14:00]

By Erno Hannink

Erno is de businesscoach die ondernemers helpt om de lange termijn doelen sneller te realiseren. Ondernemers die het beter willen doen voor de planeet, maatschappij en zichzelf. Met zijn ondersteuning en tips helpt hij je dagelijkse doelen te kiezen zodat je de lange termijn doelen eindelijk gaat realiseren. Test zijn coaching een week lang gratis uit met deze code ERNOHANNINKWEEK op dit platform -> ga naar coach.me. Sluit je aan bij de community van ondernemers die iets bijzonders doen.

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